The biggest thing I've changed my mind about because of R&S. Do you agree/disagree? Please challenge this?
(A bit long for me but here goes)
I used to believe that the "solution" to dogmatism was education. With education there will eventually no longer be religion. I no longer think this because I don't think people turn to religion due to intellectual reasons. They turn to religion due to emotional reasons.
My new way of seeing things, and a big reason why Atheists and Believers aren't speaking the same language, is because we infer that "the other" believes/disbelieves for the same reasons we do. Believers believe because of emotional reasons. Atheists disbelieve because of intellectual reasons.
Is this wrong in your experience?
Anonymous2007-05-06T19:20:59Z
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My decision for being a non-believer started emotionally and became both emotional and intellectual. So, I can't totally agree with you.
As much as I'd like to simplify this matter for the sake of understanding between the binary oppositions of believers and nonbelievers, I just don't think it can be done quite yet. I love the way you phrased it: they aren't "speaking the same language." So, you are definitely on to something. But no matter how hard we try, we can't boil it down.
There's one major element that is missing that I think transcends intellectualism and emotional responses: faith. Faith is neither yet it features both. I have faith in human kind not to randomly kill each other on a daily basis. Yes, it happens, but consider there are millions of cars on the interstate system at any given time, and 99% of those people aren't intentionally running other cars off the roads, my faith in human kind is intellectually based. But there is always an exception, and I have no idea if some day everyone could go completely insane and begin doing this. So, I have faith that it won't happen.
Now, after intense discussions with my Lutheran-raised significant other, I've learned a thing or two about Christian faith. Between him, the other Christians I've known, the Christians here, and the pithy sayings on church signs around the city, I cannot help but feel a certain anti-intellectualism amongst the religious. Because I was raised to value education, because I have three degrees, because I am an educator, and because my meaning of life revolves around learning, I cannot help but feel . . . frustrated and angry toward anti-intellectualism. That tends to translate into a very negative attitude toward religion. And that tends to keep me from communicating with Christians and coming to an understanding. I simply cannot understand why anyone would criticize education for the sake of learning. It is beyond me why anyone needs to write a book called, "How to Stay Christian in College." To me, if you were meant for your beliefs and your beliefs were meant for you, they wouldn't change no matter what education you receive. But I find that no one wants to hear that message.
So, I argue with Christians and believers.
Obviously, I'm not anti-Christian. I get why they have faith. But I simply can't believe in what they believe because my emotional experiences with Christians turned me off and because my studies tell me that Christ was probably a good guy, but not a god.
Again, while I wish I could make it work in a basic way, I can't. Trust me. I wish it was so easy (not that I'm calling you simplistic. I admire your reflection and consideration on this.)
Sorry so long. I don't expect anyone to read this. Mostly just sounding it out for myself.
It seems like some Atheists become atheists for emotional reasons. Many here complain about bad experiences at home with religion as a child. So it seems like turning to Atheism can also be an emotional issue.
There is no intellegent issues that are valid. Just today in a LIVESCIENCE Chart I saw Science validating the HOBBIT. Now, you telling me that's an intellegent viewpoint!
How can there be true education when ALL sides are not given an equal opportunity to speak.
There are at least 6-12 different views on Evolution and the Time Line.
There is a Scientific conflict over IF or IF NOT Neaderthal and Sapiens existed in tandem.
Now, which of these views are taught in school.
On school of thinking says they met and mated. Another school of thinking said Neaderthal was DEFINATELY extinct by the time Sapiens roamed the Earth.
Which is the correct point of view. What were YOU taught!
I was taught Pluto was a planet. It's in all my grade school, high school and college text books.
Speculation is taught as fact. That is a severe problem.
You cannot have a VALID education system where SPECULATION is passed off as FACT.
If you do, then start teaching about Area 57 and UFOs, for that, too, is speculation.
What it boils down to is YOUR acceptable speculation, which amounts to nothing more than brainwashing.
The Red Country is our friend, the Green Country is our Enemy.
And there ARE WMD in Iraq!
Oooops. Sorry. Pluto is NOT a planet, the Red Country is our enemy, the Green Country is our friend and there are no WMD in Iraq.
So much to your question: First in some ways your right about education for when man has gained all knowledge he will be as God is and then have no need for religion. Please don't get me wrong this cannot be done in this life, we do not have the capability to acquire that much knowledge. Second is also true the whole plan of God is that we have faith as it is one of the biggest parts of his plan for us so it is emotional. However some atheists have convinced them selves science does prove there is not a God. However I have seen the writing of scientists who have come to the conclusion that this could never be by chance but has to be engineered by a much higher power. Some atheists know full well there is a God and choose to fight the Lord in his plan to save every one. Intellectual reasons will never prove or dis prove one way or another as long as people live upon this earth with out direct guidance from Jesus himself.
No, because there are people who are Christians that can logically think things through. There are Christian scientists, philosophers, appologetics, etc whom are deep thinkers. Some are even former athetists.
Paul in the bible was a thinker and there are a number of them that were. (He was known as Saul the Christian Killer before he became Paul.) Then there is David who had mostly a heart through the way he had expressed himself. You can also see that in the bible that they had different personalities.
In part I would agree with you. Some of us have think more with our hearts then our heads. Opposites do attract.
If God made us all the same then we would have been clones wouldn't we? In some cases the church can be like that but not always. I think God sees us as individuals and if we were all the same then we would be in trouble.
Some times the person who has more of a heart can cause a person who is more a thinker to consider people's feelings where as the thinker can cause the person who has a heart to think about things more.
I am thankful that we are all different. I like you avatar even if you would think otherwise about God unless of course I am mistaken? :-)
It's pretty bold of you to take on an avatar of Christ yet you don't believe in him or maybe you did at one time? I also think it takes guts to stand out in front of crowd and preach the "Gospel of Christ" and take a beating (abuses and threats) for it. Isn't it that way always when we stand up for truth we believe in?
People who stand up for social injustice will take a stand for that and others will tell them to shut up. Is it really that much different then what Jesus tried to do when he defended those whom would have been considered weak in bibical times? He had logic and he also had a heart.
I think there's something to this argument. Certainly it's almost useless to appeal to reason when rationality isn't much involved in the choice to believe. Atheists need to find ways to communicate the emotional rewards of atheism (they are many, and profound).
And don't give up on the effects of education. Some polls suggest that the younger, more educated generations are both less religious and less hostile to nonbelief than older generations. It was never a thing that was likely to change overnight, you know....