How can I convince pro-choicer's that Abortion is Murder?
2008-02-03T10:06:52Z
Stewie: here is a picture of a baby in the womb at 8 weeks, about the time a woman would find out she had an unexpected pregnancy. Doesn't look like a "speck of cells to me"
2008-02-03T10:07:06Z
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetus
2008-02-03T10:09:54Z
Yuck: Slavery was legal and is included in the Constitution of the U.S. (Article 1 Section 9, Clause 1), Do you think Slavery was right just because it was legal?
2008-02-03T10:12:56Z
LJ: I think a woman has a choice to use any and all contraception including RU489, I do not think it is a woman's choice to have a baby cut limb from limb when it's heart is beating, it has brain activity and it feels pain.
2008-02-03T10:19:47Z
Sticky: I agree with you to a certain extent. See answer above. Life may well begin at conception, I don't know and I will probably not know in my lifetime, but my personal criteria is listed above, once the baby has brain activity, it's alive. I am not personally against RU486 or any post conception contraception.
2008-02-03T10:49:52Z
Kolacat: I can see you have given this some thought, and I can see things from your point of view. The problem I see is the choice comes before the pregnancy, if she doesn't want to be a mother there are many ways to keep that from happening that don't involve killing another human being. As to legislative morality, many laws legislate morality. Going back to a previous reply, slavery is a prime example. Many people used the same rational you do. They said "I would never own a slave, but who am I to force slave owners to ...".
Abraham Lincoln said "Whenever I hear anyone arguing for slavery, I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally." And I wonder if the pro-choicers consider that all that they are might never have been if an abortion "had been tried on them personally".
2008-02-03T11:11:58Z
ndgbill: The fallacy of your argument is the "look, this thing that I think you believe in is just as bad so that makes the bad thing I am in favor of ok." This is wrong for two reasons: 1) I also believe the death penalty is murder. 2) Just because you can point to something else and say "that is evil too" doesn't make the killing of a baby any less wrong.
You quoted the LEGAL definition of murder, dictionary.com defines murder as "to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously". http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/murder Semantics is the first symtom of a weak arguement.
2008-02-03T11:24:55Z
BJ: Since you are the keeper of the uterus, isn't it your CHOICE whether a man with no condom has access to it? Isn't it your CHOICE to take precautions to keep from getting pregnant if you do not want a baby?.
2008-02-03T11:39:06Z
Justagranma: Sorry I missed you the first time. I understand your argument as well, so let me post you this hypothetical: A person has a few drinks at the local bar, which is legal, and to obey the law they decide to walk to get home instead of drive and they don't want to pay for a cab. They are crossing a bridge and stummble and fall over the railing and die. Am I responsible for their death because I lobbied to outlaw drinking and driving in order to save the lives of the innocent? Am I resposible if I used my constitutional rights to lobby against free cab fare for people who have been drinking? Or are people responsible for their own choices?
2008-02-03T11:46:55Z
A couple of corrections : In the reply to LJ it should be RU486 not 489, the daggone joke crept into my rebuttal. In the reply to sticky, it should say PRE-conception contraception, not post.
kolacat172008-02-03T09:42:10Z
Favorite Answer
First off, I would never consider an abortion. For me it is something that is simply not an alternative, legal or not. That is my moral standing on it. The term is pro-choice, not pro-abortion. It is not to advise people to have abortions or encourage them. It is simply to say that people have the right to choose. Legal or not, abortions have always happened and will continue to happen. They will happen regardless of the legal standing of it because you cannot legislate morality. You cannot force someone to love and nurture their child. You cannot make a mother out of a woman that does not want to be one. That is up to the individual. Many times there are issues that are not brought up. Many times there are medical reasons why people have abortions. There are far more effective and easy means of birth control available than that. I do not have the right to tell another what to do with their own body. I do not have the right to force someone to bear a child. That is a decision they make and they have to live with the repercussions of it. It is easy to say no I won't ever have an abortion because I feel it is wrong. But I also feel it is wrong to force my religious ideals onto others. They have their own choice to make on that and their own morality to deal with. Why are people like you so willing to trust someone with a living and breathing child but not a choice?
I used to be pro-choice because I was under the impression that life sucked and the baby is only mucus until about 6 months into gestation. I was uneducated as far as procreation went and because I had such an awful upbringing I didn't think life was worth living and death was a much better alternative. What changed my mind was learning that life IS precious and worth living and as soon as the baby is conceived it is ALIVE and is a baby not a bunch of mucus cells that don't matter. When I learned how an abortion is performed I was horrified and sickened because before I always thought the mucus was just sucked out with a vaccuum cleaner like thing and that was it but when I learned that they actually cut the baby up into pieces while it's alive then takes the pieces out one by one I couldn't believe it and my heart broke. Partial Birth Abortion is even worse because the baby can be fully formed and could be only days away from being born and they will partially deliver it up to head then suck it's brains out through an instrument killing the infant. So I think if more people were educated and actually knew what the unborn looked like from conception to birth and how abortions are performed they might change their minds like I did and decide that life is worth living and everyone has a right to live it regardless of the circumstances surrounding their conception.
Go back in time enter the womb of your adversary and put a curette to there throat and ask them if they want to be born.
Dilation and Curettage D & C The vaginal canal is held open by a speculum, and the opening to the uterus ( cervix ) may be anesthetized. The cervical canal is widened using a metal rod, and a curette (a metal loop on the end of a long, thin handle) is passed through the canal into the uterine cavity. The inner layer of the uterus (endometrium) is scraped away, and the tissue is collected for examination.
Dilation and Extraction D&X The dilation and extraction procedure is used after 21 weeks gestation. The procedure is also known as D & X, Intact D & X, Intrauterine Cranial Decompression and Partial Birth Abortion. Two days before the procedure, laminaria is inserted vaginally to dilate the cervix. Your water should break on the third day and you should return to the clinic. The fetus is rotated and forceps are used to grasp and pull the legs, shoulders and arms through the birth canal. A small incision is made at the base of the skull to allow a suction catheter inside. The catheter removes the cerebral material until the skull collapses. Then the fetus is completely removed.
The solution should be in the best interests of the child.
Figure out a way to move an unborn child to some other womb, human or otherwise.
The persons who brought the unborn to life, including the father, are required to pay alimony for say 25 years to the people who adopt the kid, and they lose 100% parental rights to the kid they did not want.
What bothers me the most are parents who come from male dominated societies. They find out the unborn kid is female, so they abort it because they want a male child,
You can't, and women today can find out they are pregnant two weeks after conception, and they can take medication that will end or prevent a pregnancy the morning after unprotected intercourse. Its not the ending of fetal life that pro-choice people are as concerned about as the right to choose whether or not terminating a pregnancy is up to the state or the woman. Since its recognized that a woman who doesn't want a pregnancy will still abort, the question then is do we do it with modern sterile methods that will leave her able to bear children in the future, or do we have a return to uterine infections and sterility or uterine punctures and possible death of the woman. A woman who may very well be married and caring for as many children as she and her husband can afford. A living, breathing sentient woman has the right to make that decision and know she will still be alive and functioning for her family, or her future family. In the old days women could only get safe abortions overseas, poor women suffered immeasurably as ER rooms were flooded on Saturday night with the results of botched abortions. Is that really what you want a return to, how can I convince prolifers that it is murder to criminalize abortion, murder for the already present woman who decides to have one? And that their deaths, will be on pro-'lifers' heads. While I can appreciate a hypothetical argument, I prefer to stick with what is an actuality, not drinking and falling off a cliff or a cab ride, or arguments about personal responsiblity. Its a simple discussion between legal and safe for the woman determined to terminate, and dead, dying or sterile for the same woman, I'm not interested in why shes terminating, or if I'm going to set myself up as judge and jury, to see if in some twisted way shes worthy of safe termination. If a woman doesn not for any reason, up to the end of the fourth month, wish to carry and deliver a fetus, she should have the right to terminate. Otherwise we will have compulsory pregnancy, it is too often hoped that this will make people stop having sex at all, or are you unaware that the morning after pill is also considered an abortifacient? So is any thing but barrier methods. The women who want abortion the most are those least able to care for a child, or another child. Forcing them to continue a pregnancy against their will is a terrible thing to do.
You will have already removed the choice by law. So yes, you and each and every person who has wept over the fetus will be responsible for the law when you make abortion illegal and turn it into the meat grinder it was when it was illegal last time. And then you can weep over your daughter, or your wife, or your mother, or your sister.