Folks who think that there are alien spacecraft in our skies - Do you understand modern physics?

Especially Special Relativity - which is sort of basic and over 100 years old now.

Do you think it's important?

2008-08-05T19:43:50Z

Special relativity starts with the understanding that the speed of light is constant, regardless of the motion of the source or the observer. the result of this, which has been demonstrated repeatedly, is that you cannot exceed the speed of light - light will always pass you at the speed of light - and you cannot pass it. This means:
1. Any alien civilization - looking out at 10,000 star systems - would see ours as it was thousands of years in the past - why would they choose to come here?
2. Even if they did decide to come here, it would take thousands of years (our frame and their home system frame) to get here. Perhaps in their vehicle, time would slow down to 100 years or so.
3. If they did that, why would they zip around and hide from all of us except a few of the strangest people for the last 50 years?

Special relativity is a theory like Evolution is a theory and like the Earth orbits the Sun is a theory. It's well - established and backed up by thousands of observations.

2008-08-05T21:29:54Z

Dear friends -

Thanks for responding. I am not kidding when I say that relativity is a theory in the same sense that evolution or Earth's orbit is a theory. Physicists and astronomers use it on a daily basis.

I think it is disingenuous to claim that relativity - 100 year old science that is not in question - is not important when it contradicts your thinking, but that you do not really understand how it works. I did not see any responses that said "I understand special relativity and I don't believe it." Newton's Laws don't apply at near-light speeds. Granted, there could be extended spacefaring civilizations on community ships - but that's not what the folks claim to see as aliens in our skies, which was really the original question.

Saying that our relatively (pun) primitive knowledge is not important compared to an advanced civilization is irrational if your basis for the existence of that civilization is that our knowledge is primitive. It's a circular argument.

2008-08-05T21:36:04Z

Please understand - I am not saying that there are no advanced civilizations out there - I'm fairly certain that there are - somewhere. I am saying that it doesn't make sense for them to travel across that aching emptiness and then zip around and hide from us for 50 years in multiple spacecraft flying in formation. It's just silly, based on well - known and well - understood physics.

2008-08-06T11:45:47Z

Well, that's an interesting array of responses.

slipknot - You are one of the few responders who met the criterion of thinking that there are nearby aliens. While I disagree with almost all of your logic, I appreciate the fact that you are willing to ask for more info.

justask - I am surprised that you have had college astronomy / physics and still say relativity is largely theory.

rose - Newton has not been tossed aside - let's not toss Einstein either. Newton did include motion at near light speed.

Zero - Agreed - There may be exceptions to relativity. But those would not explain aliens in our sky, as you point out.

faesson - Sorry, I couldn't resist.

dude - space travel has nothing to do with physics? Do you understand Newtonian physics?

Bob - Fine. You understand basic physics. Do you understand relativity? You cannot make the next step without understanding the last 37 or so..

John - I agree, but you don't think there are aliens around, either.

2008-08-06T12:10:45Z

andyg - Looks like an excellent book. I think I'll buy it - thanks.

Brant - Yeah. There are always new walls, but we didn't throw out Newton in favor of Einstein. Einstein represents a pretty big wall, and I hear nothing in terms of understanding what the exceptions could be - just awe and lack of interest in the details.

acp - Physics is different on Earth?

Cowboy - I agree that recent work in physics has grown more speculative - which makes me understand that Einstein was a giant of observer-verified theory - andyg would probably agree. The light barrier is way different than the sound barrier, based on relativity. You can't just apply more power and get past it.

bulb - Unfortunately, I do not understand what you are trying to say.

Das Reich - Yes, but do you understand relativity? These things you saw broke "my" rules of physics?

SHIFT - OK, let's start with math. Eventually, we can get to physics.

Question: do you understand relativity?

Anonymous2008-08-05T19:32:05Z

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i wouldn't be able to write a paper on it... but i'd say i have a more then average understanding of it....

i don't really see how it would tie into alien space craft in the sky, tho....

could you explain a little bit?


"I understand special relativity as well as any layperson, and why it causes the idea of stellar travel to seem a mere pipe dream."

i take it he would be refering to whatever planet these aliens came from are thousands of light years away, and there's just no way a living being could live long enough to make such a journey?

still not really a problem, if they've mastered space flight, surely they have knowledge for cryogenic stasis as well....

although i still refuse to accept einstien's idea that matter moving close to or at the speed of light is impossible.

"1. Any alien civilization - looking out at 10,000 star systems - would see ours as it was thousands of years in the past - why would they choose to come here?
2. Even if they did decide to come here, it would take thousands of years (our frame and their home system frame) to get here. Perhaps in their vehicle, time would slow down to 100 years or so.
3. If they did that, why would they zip around and hide from all of us except a few of the strangest people for the last 50 years?"

1. ancient history aside, who says they're coming here for anything other then their own purposes, maybe collecting fuel/elements it needs to survive/power it's ship..... it's obvious they don't want to make contact [to modern civilization] or atleast the general population (who knows what goes on behind closed doors)

now about ancient history.... nearly every ancient culture tells how they were created/brought here by aliens, or how aliens came to them and gave them knowledge.... they've left countless artifacts and peices of art perfectly depicting non-human beings, even tho they had a sort of human appearance (mostly just the body structure, two legs to arms a head...) space craft, and tons of extra-terestrial ****...

i'm not saying that's true, but it's a little odd that all over the world between 6,000-3,000-ish bc aliens being here and interacting with people was considered common knowledge... some even worshiped the aliens....

although, unless you actually open your mind to the possibility, you'll never see any of this as relevant, you can explain it away all you want... but if you actually opened your eyes you'd atleast find it strange and intriguing and make you wonder 'what if'

ZeroByte2008-08-06T02:38:54Z

I understand special relativity as well as any layperson, and the reasons why it causes the idea of stellar travel to seem a mere pipe dream.

However, I am firmly of the belief that just because we don't know a way around it doesn't mean that there is none. Newton was right as far as anyone had the ability to detect for over a hundred years. Einstein realized that Newton's laws only held true in cases where all observers are in the same inertial frame of reference, etc etc - and we've since proven this to be true. What about circumstances where special relativity doesn't apply? We haven't found any, but that doesn't equate to the inescapability of relativity.

Or, perhaps even if it is inescapable, the alien visitors are of a culture where family and personal attachments mean little to them, and they simply accept time dilation as a consequence of stellar exploration. One could visit a very large portion of space indeed if they are willing to leave their origin's timeframe behind.

And as far as energy sources go, once again, we only know what we know, and not everything that could be possible. A 50mph wind was able to blow down a suspension bridge, not through brute force, but by unlocking the potential energy stored in the structure itself, and causing that to tear the bridge apart. Certainly there might be analogous energy sources / ways to get around special relativistic effects when travelling to stars.

I accept relativity for what it is - the best we currently know. I also accept the fact that today's scientific laws are tomorrow's outdated misconceptions / steps in the right direction that fell short of the full truth.

So I completely believe that it is //possible// to travel to the stars (from the stars to Earth?). I simply do not buy into the UFO/Conspiracy Theory thought as it is too speculative and un-proven to be considered a liklihood.

Space Cowboy2008-08-06T03:49:57Z

Modern physics is just as speculative as the flat Earth theory. Technological advances do aid in understanding, but it is only a transitory truth. Throughout Man's history, our feeble understanding of Nature has undergone many revolutions and are we really that arrogant to believe we now understand all our limitations?

We are only truely limited by our imaginations. Imagine travelling back in time and giving Isaac Newton a pocket scientific calculator, or giving Galileo and DaVinci access to the Hubble. Would they say "Impossible!!!"?
The Star Trek communicators of yester year are todays reality in cell phones. Look at the strides Man has accomplished in just the last hundred years. It doesn't take much of a duck brain to imagine a civilization a hundred thousand or even a million years more advanced than us. Skeptics of the past stated that we could never break the sound barrier. Today's skeptics, with their "higher" understanding, say it's the light barrier.

It really doesn't hurt to imagine and dream and to keep smiling.

Anonymous2008-08-06T06:20:38Z

I understand exactly what you are trying to say & have you ever thought that the whole UFO phenomenon is really a deliberate "diversion" that was created to hide what is really going on here on Earth ? This is my theory anyway & if we want to see real "aliens" I say we should start looking in our own backyard Earth. By this I am talking about our society which we all assume as being made up of average human beings, but is this really the case & could the so-called "aliens" be walking around & communicating with us on a daily basis ? Like I said, we should start & have a good look around here on Earth before we venture elsewhere as the answers we are seeking could be just next door !

Jack2008-08-06T02:45:37Z

The difficulty for Aliens 2 reach Earth is enormous. Firstly there is no planet capable of sustaining life in this Solar System. The nearest other Solar System is 4 light years away which is the distance light travels over 4 years. Light travels about 300,000 km/s. You can't exceed this speed and to get anywhere close 2 it u need an enormous amount of energy - something our current technology certainly can't obtain.

Given this difficulty and the lack of proof there has been alien visitors, 1 would have 2 b skeptical about alien "sightings".

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