I know that you are still waiting for the Messiah to come. What I want to know is, how would you know when he has come? What criterion must he meet?
2009-09-16T15:47:22Z
Thank you to those who have answered the question and given details. However, I have comments and more questions.
It does not make sense to me that Isaiah 53 is referring to the nation of Israel. These verses for example:
Verse 8: By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? for he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.
"my people" implies Israel. So, how could Israel be cut off out of the land for Israel's transgression?
Verse 9: And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.'
And there are scriptures where the nation had committed violence, idolatry, causing God to either send them into captivity or be oppressed by other nations. Isaiah 59 comes to mind.
It is clear that Isaiah 53 is talking about a person not a nation.
Tiberia2009-09-14T12:25:34Z
Favorite Answer
He must do the following: "The messaih will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15). "
I am not a Jew, the one who needs coffee can tell you about what Jews have traditinally expected, but a messiah is a human leader who will accomplish the promises given by the God of Israel, through the prophets, as recorded in several books of the Tanach. The promises are mostly to be accomplished on this earth, as Isaiah says "while we still can speak, while we are still praying for these things to comes to pass". They are meant to be "real, physical fulfillments", not "spiritual ones" and not ones to be accomplished only in heaven. Most would make no sense if they were only spiritual or heavenly. A messiah is a human, earthly realm term not a term used for the spiritual realm; not for eternity, heaven, angels, nor for God. A human messiah can only be known when we actually see the messiah actually accomplishing "messiah stuff"; when we are led and work for that better world, for the establishment of a kingdom of God on earth. Most skeptics can't imagine a "perfect" world, but we have a long way to go to a more perfect world that even pessimists can imagine as attainable. We expect more from a big God, more than some "religious folk" are satisfied with.
The Messiah is preceded by Elijah the prophet who, with the Messiah, unifies the family (Malachi 4:5-6), which is contradicted by Jesus in Matthew 10:34-37. The Messiah re-establishes the Davidic dynasty through the messiah's own children (Daniel 7:13-14). But Jesus had no children. The Messiah brings an eternal peace between all nations, between all peoples, and between all people (Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-4; Ezekiel 39:9). Obviously there is no peace. Furthermore, Jesus said that his purpose in coming was to bring a sword, and not peace (see Matthew 10:34, as referenced above.) The Messiah brings about the universal world-wide conversion of all peoples to Judaism, or at least to Ethical Monotheism (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Zechariah 8:23; Isaiah 11:9; Zechariah 14:9,16). But the world remains steeped in idolatry. The Messiah brings about an end to all forms of idolatry (Zechariah 13:2). But the world remains steeped in idolatry. The Messiah brings about a universal recognition that the Jewish idea of God is God (Isaiah 11:9). But the world remains steeped in idolatry. The Messiah leads the world to become vegetarian (Isaiah 11:6-9). It isn't. The Messiah gathers to Israel, all of the twelve tribes (Ezekiel 36:24). Many of the ten lost tribes remain lost. The Messiah rebuilds The Temple (Isaiah 2:2; Ezekiel 37:26-28). It hasn't been rebuilt. There will be no more famine (Ezekiel 36:29-30). People starve to death every day. After the Messiah comes, death will eventually cease (Isaiah 25:8). People die every day. Eventually the dead will be resurrected (Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; Ezekiel 37:12-13; Isaiah 43:5-6); The nations of the earth will help the Jews, materially (Isaiah 60:5-6; 60:10-12; The Jews will be sought out for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23); All weapons will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9,12); The Nile will run dry (Isaiah 11:15) Monthly, the trees of Israel will yield their fruit (Ezekiel 47:12); Each tribe of Israel will receive and settle their inherited land (Ezekiel 47:13-13); The nations of the earth will recognize that they have been wrong, that the Jews have been right, and that the sins of the Gentile nations, their persecutions and the murders they committed, have been borne by the Jewish people (Isaiah 53)
Criterion? That is the wrong way, the human way to look at it. Too many look for signs, dates, verses of descriptions (that some call "prophecies") fulfilled, etc. What was the criterion that God saw, that the skinny boy David had that his older brothers didn't have and that Samuel didn't see? In the bible, we are told over and over that what counts is that God chooses and what matters is deed and what people do. We are here to act, to do, to live, to accomplish. When whoever the messiah is leads us and accomplishes the work of the messiah, that one is the Moshiach. There will be no guessing, no miraculous signs (which all the "best" of the false prophets were (are) good at, so that we are tempted/our faith is tested), no propaganda, no "leap of faith alone" no checkists, no list of "prophesies fulfilled" or rather list of "circumstantial evidence" gathered by shyster lawyers. There is no one who has to go across the sea, or to the "big city", or "up the hill" to bring it to us. "There is no one who needs to ascend to heaven and bring it back down to us, says my bible.
When things are done, when we see the work is started or accomplished, at some point there can be no denial. All will know. Jeremiah promised that no longer will we have to be taught, we will see and we will know. As they said at Sinai, we will hear and we will understand.
Oh, how great God is. Let's us work for peace and justice and do the commandments, the will of God.