Advice on how to go about working with this mare? (Join up on a lunge line, and severe separation anxiety)?

I apologize if this gets long, but I thank you ahead of time for reading, and your input.

Yes, my problem child. A four and a half year old TWH mare. I've had her since she was born, and about a year ago, she was well on her way towards being a wonderfully broke riding horse. And then the moving mess started, and I unfortunately had to leave my round pen. At the moment, I do not have a round pen, and it is really bad.

This mare is very high strung, head strong, and strong willed. When I had a round pen to work with her with the join up technique, she was fine. It was easy to keep her in line, but it's been almost a year since she has been worked like that, and she has become simply put, a monster. She is well past the point of becoming dangerous. It all stems from the fact that she thinks that she is in charge, and nothing that I can do can change her mind right now. Sure, if I could, I'd chase her around in a round pen for an hour every day, but I don't have a round pen where I can do that.

Another real problem with her, is separation anxiety. Not just how the average horse craves to be with their herd mates, because it's instinct. I'm talking about a horse that will have a full blown panic when her bestest buddy goes out of site. Her buddy has known her since she was born. There have been times where her buddy has left for a week, or two weeks, but otherwise she has been with this other horse her whole life.


As it stands right now, as long as I don't tie her, don't do anything she doesn't like, don't try to get on her, or take her away from a buddy, she's 100 perfect, sweet as can be. Sure, I could cope with her for the rest of her life, just be careful not to make her upset, but I can't let this go on. I didn't want to deal with her at all, stemming from quite a bit of bitterness involving a gelding that was sold, instead of her so she could come with us to Kentucky, but apparently no one else in my family has legs, or arms, and are incapable of training her, so I suppose I'm going to have to do it.

Last time an attempt was made to ride her, she became agitated to the point where she was close to blowing up. When she's agitated, she paws. If you try to stop her, it gets worse and she'll do things like leaning against where she's tied, so she can put more power into her pawing, or something.

Basically, what I want to know is can I do join up with her on a lunge line? I own a longe line, but she's never really been worked on one before. And can I even work a horse this dangerous on it? I have a flat area where I can work her that is grassy, and a semi flat area in one of the pastures that is mostly dirt that kind of slopes a little bit. Not too bad, though.

Also, if I got some kind of calming supplement for the first month that I start her, would that help?

What can I do with the separation thing?

2009-10-22T17:45:43Z

Oh, and the only place where I could make a round pen, is a very large stall that is on a big slope. It's too big, really uneven, and is full of hip high weeds. Weeds that bite.

2009-10-22T18:08:50Z

She's kept in a pasture, and she is fed extra feed, but I don't think that cutting it is an option, because she doesn't keep weight very easily. She gets Omolene, I think the active pleasure horse?

2009-10-22T18:35:52Z

I've tried slapping her when she paws, and she doesn't seem to care. I don't have a riding crop anymore, but I can buy one next time I go to Tractor supply.

I don't plan on riding her again for a while. I want to keep working with her on the ground only. If she improves, then I will start her under the saddle again

I will try the leading, I've been doing the same thing with my yearling. Once upon a time, she had wonderful manners when told to back up, ect so maybe they'll all come back to her.

Maybe.

2009-10-22T19:43:43Z

She's handled daily. In the early morning when she's let out to graze, and in the afternoon when she's put away into their smaller pasture. Through the day, I go out, work with my yearling, and give them all brushings, and check overs.

Interesting name, Reality Check, because it is you, I think that need the checking.

I've worked with horses since I was ten, I'm turning twenty at the end of this year. I know what I'm doing, I know how to properly join up with a horse.

I personally have not had much to do with the training of this horse, I left her to my parents because when she was two, I got an abused gelding (same that I'd mentioned earlier that was sold), and I put all of my time into working with him. I rode her a few times, in circles in the round pen, but otherwise I didn't care, because I was devoting all of my time into what I thought was going to be my personal riding horse for many years.

-will be continued because of character limit-

2009-10-22T19:51:42Z

I regret not taking a more active part in her training earlier, and having not picked up on her training right after moving. I was recovering from a bad fall, and having to deal with having to sell my gelding. I sat around and did nothing, yeah my fault. But don't assume that I'm completely clueless.

And Omolene is a fine food, I like it a lot.

I know what I'm doing, I've proved that I know what I'm doing with several horses. So I don't know if you're seriously that clueless, or judgmental or if you just like to upset people, but I don't feel like playing right now. :)

2009-10-23T06:21:12Z

Well, I'm sorry that people actually pay you, Reality Check, and I'm sorry that you're so sure that you're the end all, and that everyone else is an idiot.

I'm sorry that you seem to be unable to read, and understand a situation.

A year ago, this mare was fine, and going along with her training perfectly. She was being ridden once a week, the only real issue she was having was she was green with little experience.

Then, I moved across the country, and she has not had any training work since then. That is what started the big problem. Most horses will have issues if you suddenly stop in the middle of their training, and do nothing with them for almost a year.

Yeah, I know I'm not very old, I'm under no illusion that I'm some great thing, if I were, I wouldn't be asking for advice.

Alpha Mare2009-10-22T19:08:11Z

Favorite Answer

How often is she handled since she is kept at pasture and doesn't get brought in and out daily?

I think just taking her out and handling her a lot will build respect and knock off some of the attitude. It will certainly help with the separation anxiety when you take her out and put her to work. Take her out and put her mind on doing something else other than worrying about her friend. Work her. Make her think about her feet and not her bud munching grass contentedly. When she stops whinnying and putting up a fight, let her relax. Go graze or brush her. Never return her to her friend until she is in a positive mindset and listening 100% to what you tell her to do. It will slowly get easier and eventually disappear if you handle her daily.

If you have a rope halter and a long lead you can do a lot of ground work stuff without an arena. You can work on getting her to respect your body language and space by getting her to disengage hind and fore, by being able to control her feet and head.

There is nothing wrong with taking a crop to your horses leg when she paws. I don't even give my horses two chances. If someone lifts a hoof, they get a firm NO. The second it turns into pawing someone gets a good smack.

As for the "getting agitated to the point of blowing up" I say if she's not going to hurt you or her with her temper tantrum ride through it and let her know that such behavior doesn't get her out of work. If she gets agitated when she is supposed to be relaxing tied up, put her back to work, don't put her back in her pasture.


I'm not familiar with Omolene, so Ill go google it and get back to you. Well, I Googled it and it seems pretty decent, nothing that would make her crazy-hot. No food suggestions here, other than my usual beet pulp and quality hay.


Don't waste your time with calming supplements unless you think she'll get SO worked up she'll put herself into a colic episode when you take her away from her bud. Good, solid consistent handling is all you need to chill her out. And once you've got her to a safe point, good consistent exercise will keep her that way.


ADD- Pawing is a VICE. It's bad for the horse's legs and for the footing that you've paid to put somewhere. If a horse can't stand patiently for a short period, it needs to be worked and corrected until it can. If the horse were tied for hours at a time, that would be different as far as the correction goes, but it still does not change the fact that it is unacceptable, distructive behavior. And if I got slapped for doing something annoying, every time I did that annoying thing, immediately after I started doing it, and the slapping stopped when I did, I would learn not to do that annoying thing.

swing low2009-10-22T17:53:54Z

I think that in that kind of situation most people recommend professional help. You didn't say how you keep her. I would put her out in a field with hay if there isn't any grass and as little grain as you can. SHe sounds like she has an excessive amount of energy and being able to run aruond always helps everyone. Maybe you can start by putting her and her buddy in teh same paddock and then put them in adjacent paddocks, and jsut slowly move them away from each other. If you do it slowly and her have something to eat or do the whole time, it shouldn't be dangerous, and hopefully would work.
I would start with ground manners and that kind of stuff before even thinking about riding her, or lunging. Treat her like a baby.

MBRShorse2009-10-22T18:24:37Z

This horse needs a wake-up call. This will me getting at her more than you may want. Try this:

When she paws in the cross-ties, give her a slap on the shoulder. Pawing is rude. If she paws again, slap her once more. When she paws the thrid time, give her and even harder slap. Use verbal commands such as "No" as well. If she paws again, get a crop and give her a wack across her upper leg. I know right now everyone is freaking out since I told you to whip your horse. You are not whipping your horse. You gave her three chances to correct her behavior. Now you deliever a single blow across the leg since the gentler reminders weren't working. By now, she should stop pawing since you are showing her that you mean business. If she still paws, take her out of the cross-ties and back her up, telling her no. Be careful though, because she may become agitated by this but she needs to learn that you are the herd leader.

When riding her, if she misbehaves, give her three chances like before. After her third offence, grab the inside rein and run her in tight circles. This will be hard for her but that is the point. What you are trying to do is make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult for her.

Finally, I reccomend doing some walking exercises. This is where you lead her around. Do series of turns and stops. She should turn when you turn and stop when stop. Her she stops to far ahead or keeps going, make her stop and then back her up. Don't be mean about backing her up. Merely back her up to where you wanted her to stop. She should also walk with you. If she drags behind, give her a little tap on the rump. If she rushes forward, stop her and back her up. This will make her gain respect for you and you will be able to gain control.

I know you asked about joining up. Right now, the best thing you can do is gain her respect and become the leader of your herd. Also, you shouldn't join up on a lunge line because that teaches her that she is allowed in your personal space. This is the rule. You have your space, she has her space. You are allowed in her space whenever you want, she is never allowed in your space. If you allow her in your space, this sets up a dangerous scenrio.

I use these techniques on my horse. She is very well behaved and she respects me. She doesn't fear me but adores me. She is always waiting for me at the gate when I go to see her and she takes care of me when I ride her. She respects me and that enables us to safely be friends.

To help you understand things even more, think of your horse as toddler. If your child misbehaved, would you bat a blind eye or would you disicpline them.

Good luck!

EDIT: Just realized that I forgot about the seperation anixety. I don't know what you can do to keep her calm in the field but I know how to help her behavior when you are riding her. It is really simple. If she misbehaves due to herd boundness when riding her, don't immediatley but her back in the pasture with her buddy when you are done riding her. This teaches her that if she misbehaves, she gets what she wants. Instead, put her in a pasture that is separate from the rest. She will fuss for a bit but after she calms down, or calms down as much as she can, put her with the others. She will eventually realize that good behavior gets her to her buddies faster.

Finley2009-10-22T19:22:35Z

Let me guess, your version of Join Up is to simply run the snot out of her til she's quiet? That is NOT JOIN UP. that is a great way to ruin a horse...like what you've done. You're training her to NOT trust you.

Join Up and other Natural Training stuff is about guidance for a horse, to teach the horse how to read you, not to act like a lion and chase the poor confused horse around for hours. Geez. Get a book on the subject, will you please?

THE REVOLUTION IN HORSEMANSHIP. Buy it. Read it. Memorize it.

Sorry, but you sound totally clueless about what Join Up is all about. If you did know, your horse should be BETTER not worse, and you should be able to get past needing a round pen by now. it's not her. It's you. You've failed her.

GET PROFESSIONAL HELP before you screw up this poor confused horse any more. She has no clue as to what you want, what you are all about, what your intentions are...

She's being NORMAL....because you are unclear, confusing and frustrating the hell out of her...she has no other choice but to choose her own natural instincts and try to boss you around or be scared of being away from other horses/the barn where she feels safe, because she doesn't feel safe/trust you at all.

Separation anxiety is false. Horses are a herd animal. and it's in their nature to crave being in the safety of the herd when alone. When this mare is with you, she feels utterly alone. Because you are so confusing to her. She CAN'T trust you. You've made that perfectly clear to her.

GET PRO HELP. You're not good enough to fix this mess that you made. Sorry for being so blunt, but I make a living out of fixing people's screwed up horses and I've fixed the problems that you are talking about....it comes down to:

1) patience. that means, you're not allowed to lose your cool. EVER. because your horse simply doesn't know. she's innocent. like a kid. needs guidance and support, nothing less.

2) consistent handling. you must show that you can earn her trust and respect by being assertive BUT fair. that means, not ever chasing her around like a predator in an rp, or otherwise yanking, pulling or smacking her, yelling or otherwise scaring/confusing her.

3) give the horse the chance to THINK her way through. that means, knowing what the hell you're doing...setting up a lesson plan and taking baby steps to get it done.

4) anything you do must have a pattern and use rhythm.

GET CLINTON ANDERSON'S DVDS and memorize them. Otherwise, get a real trainer and for God's sake, get a trainer for your yearling before you mess up that horse, and any other, too.

The auction yards are FILLED with horses bound for slaughter because of people like you who have messed up the horse's mind....

YOU can fix this and you should. It's your obligation to this horse.....but you must open your eyes to the truth....You are wrong in how you're handling her, you are at fault and she's just reflecting your lack of skill.

PLEASE for the sake of this horse...get some real help. At least get a trainer to help this mare get on track and take lessons, once a week with homework if nothing else....

as for the "slap her when she paws"....yeah, how about if those people who suggested that get slapped every time they do something annoying? Pawing is natural, people. Pawing means: I'm bored, I want to do something...so don't punish the horse for that! how rude! instead....give her a good job to do, like teach her to lead properly, lunge her in a controlled good way, not run around hurting her young body (a horse isn't full grown til 5).....

You don't need a round pen, by the way. But YOU do sound like you need pro help.

And Omelene?? Chuck that into the trash. It's nothing but crack for horses. It's sugar and corn. 2 things that this nor any horse needs in their diet. It's crap.

______

EDITED TO ADD:

Really? You know what you're doing? Yet your "Join up" hasn't worked worth a spit and this mare seems to be getting worse rather than better according to your description.

If you are so good, why come on here and ask for advice for a mare that's clearly getting messed up signals from you?

Sorry, but reality check is....you DON'T know what you're doing and you DO need some real help.

By the way, I have clients who've been around horses for 30 years or so...and yet they do screw things up bad enough to call me.

So, time wise....you had horse experience since you were 10? Gimme a break. Get a trainer and help out this horse for real.