Isn't it ironic that one of the "benefits" of christianity is an objective, fixed morality, yet...?
When asked about atrocities ordered or carried out by god in the old testament, they immediately say "things were different back then"?
Yet so often we hear "atheists have no morality, anything goes for them! Christians have a universal morality handed down from god." How do they reconcile this?
2010-01-21T23:43:27Z
ITSNOTME: Um.. theists argue ALL THE TIME that atheists have no morality, just read up on Ken Ham, Pat Robertson, and other prominent xians. And Many many christians say "things were differnt back then", in fact there are 2 questions up right now on the same page where people are giving that exact answer.
2010-01-21T23:45:21Z
I don;t need to study anyhting to ask a clearer question. Many many many christians say that things were differnet back when god said to kill adulterers, kill women who weren;t virgins on their wedding night, etc... I;m saying, if things were "different", where is this vaunted objective morality?
Melissa B2010-01-21T23:54:28Z
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I have problems with this as well. I believe that atheists do have a morality, just as most people. People in general, not the power hungry, warmongers, and wrongdoers against humanity, but those who are in the general population have a feeling that a good thing is a good thing and good things get good things while bad things getbad. I have never met an atheist who is a horrible, hateful person, priding themselves on how much better than the rest of humanity they are. I'm sure there are some out there, just as there are people who do bad in every religion on this planet. Also, most Christians I know aren't in it for the holy wars, neither are the Muslims that I know, or the Wiccans, or the Buddhists, or the Jews. Each of the people that I have encountered in all of these religions generally want one thing that we can all have in common. Peace among the people, and a reward for trying to be the best person you can be, or in the case of those who choose not to be attached to a godhead; being the best person you can be because it's the right thing to do regardless of your views.
However, each religion is taught that it's doctrine is the right doctrine (except Buddhism, why, I haven't figured out yet). There are those who are in it for their own idea of salvation, or because they were brought up that way, or because it gives them peace; yet there are others who are in it because it gives them a seat of power, a feeling of predestination, or because they are zealous and self righteous. I can't even begin to touch upon all of these things.
As for the Bible, check your old testament against the new. You will find that Christ was a new way, the final sacrifice, and the one who promoted love amongst all of God's children, not hate and wars. In the end, it basically boils down to this. God rewarded those who obeyed him by taking from those who did not and then sent His Son as a way to change what mankind had become. The end is suppose to be bloody and terrifying like knocking down a tower and rebuilding a new one that is fresh and not decrepit, only the ones who choose to remain old and decrepit will be in the tower when it falls.
Objective Morality doesn't mean Atheists don't have morals. It means that all people know the moral law, even if some chose to go against it. I know outstanding moral atheists, and lame moral theists. I think you should better study the Axiological argument so that you understand what you are trying to say.
God never changes, nor do His perfect laws. When you read the OT in its entirety (not just selected bits) you discover that God's moral laws are so consistent, that nobody can keep them. Not even the people of God whom He brought into covenant relationship with Himself. In that covenant, blessings are promised to those who keep the covenant, and dire consequences come to those who break it. That is why the people of God suffered defeat at the hands of their enemies; God raised up the Babylonians, the Persians, the Romans etc to bring retribution on His covenant people. Those were not atrocities though many died, were made slaves by the pagans, and suffered dreadfully. Those were the consequences God warned them about for not keeping the covenant they agreed to keep. Judgement begins with the House of God.
If you read the OT properly, you will discover that the point of God's law is to convince us that not one of us can keep it. We are all law-breakers. We all deserve the punishment of God. Yet God, in His mercy, has enabled repentant people to be forgiven (without His justice being violated). Atheists, no matter how admirably upstanding they might be, need to stop attacking imperfect Christians and consider their own imperfections because none of us deserve God's forgiveness. Yet it is freely available to all! Will you please reconcile your warped and partial grasp of Scripture with the rest of it?
"things were different back then"? Sorry that you speak to unlearned Christians but don't base the all by the some. Nothing has changed as far as the heart and spirit of mankind ever. God doesn't change, doesn't fail and God doesn't lie.
Who says atheists have no morality? All people have morality. What atheists lack is what any unsaved person lacks - the ability to please God.