Jimmy Collins or Pie Traynor? Most people don't ask these questions anymore and I love them. Both are Hall of famers, both played in different eras but have very similar numbers.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/colliji01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/traynpi01.shtml
jxhzut6156@sbcglobal.net
Favorite Answer
It is a myth that Pie Traynor was a better shortstop than Jimmy Collins. Until the year 1955, the lists by anyone of the greatest third basemen was headed by Jimmy Collins. Connie Mack who put together two of the great Athletic dynasties, and John McGraw (a third baseman himself) scoffed at the idea that Traynor was better.
Here is a quote by John McGraw, "My choice is Jimmy Collins for his general excellence as a fielder, a hitter, and a man. He was the first player to figure out how to defeat the bunting game as he began playing off the bag and charging in to field bunts. After his success, all third basemen began to play the bunt that way. He was the real pioneer of the modern style of playing third base".
Collins played from 1895 through 2008. 14 years. Batted .294 for his career and this was during the Dead Ball Era when the league batting average were about .230. He is rated by Gary Gillette and Pete Palmer as having a lifetime AOPS of 122 which translates to being 22% better than average, and also rated by them as having an outstanding range and throwing arm.
He had exactly 1,999 hits of which 1,466 were singles and believe it or not, actually hit more homers than Traynor, who played during the Lively Ball Era when hitters and sluggers took over the game.
Traynor had a lifetime BA of .320 when some teams and leagues were hitting over .300.
Traynor's lifetime AOPS was rated at 107, significantly less than Collins, and had, at best, a league average arm and fielding percentage. His range factor was also not up to Collin's standards.
Conclusion, I'll take Jimmy Collins, any time over Traynor.
18 gibbs 20
Back in the 40's and 50's when magazines would run articles on "the Best Ever" Pie Traynor was routinely selected as the best thirdbaseman of all time. Since the people writing these articles then actually saw these players perform I'll go with what they said. Pie Traynor.
How Would I Know
My first impression was that it was Pie Traynor and there wasn't really any room to debate it. That view was based purely on their comparative slash lines:
.320/.362/.435 for Traynor vs .294/.343/.409 for Collins. But digging a bit deeper you see that Collins had an OPS+ ( a better way of comparing across eras ) than Traynor.. 113 vs 107. So it's not as one sided as I originally thought.. but I'm still going to have to go with Traynor.
?
One big thing to look at is their wRAA (weighted Runs Above Average). wRAA goes into calculating WAR (Wins Above Replacement) which explains how many wins a player was effectively worth to his team. If you look at it like that, Jimmy Collins is the clear-cut winner with a career 54.6 WAR versus Pie Traynor's 42.2
Anonymous
It's not even close: Traynor was a far-better 3rd baseman than Collins. Collins was a butcher in the field. Traynor routinely makes the Top 10 lists at 3rd base while Collins doesn't even crack the Top 25.