A conspiracy theory...has science and the AVMA colluded to endorse early S/N?

Attached link has more detail.

QUESTION: If early Spay Neuter is such an effective tool to stem pet overpopulation - why after 40+ years of use are we still in a huge mess?

Is this another case of conspiracy theories that are contrived from two major stakeholders with vested interests in the process - ie profit as the expense of results ?

Do shelters REALLY reduce pet overpopulation by early S/N or is this propaganda fed to the public to encourage donations because if the truth were told, they would have to admit their policies and practices taken as a whole over the last 40 years have failed? We still have kill shelters, we still have pet overpopulation ?

Do vets REALLY believe this - or is a cash cow, and just like pet food, a bone they refuse to give up.

Is a scientific study stating that you can neuter a dog at 8 weeks with the caveat it "shouldn't" affect him up to the age of 4 years a cop out?

What happens after the dog turns 4? Is it ethical to sell a shelter dog for $300 spayed at 8 weeks of age and then ask the pet owner to spend hundreds or thousands on his illness later on?

A couple quotes below:
***************************************************

The conclusion for dogs was that “with the exception of infectious diseases, prepubertal gonadectomy may be safely performed in dogs without concern for increased incidence of physical or behavioral problems during at least a 4-year period after gonadectomy.

The six month age requirement for surgery came into question in the late 1970s when shelters encountered difficulty getting adopters to comply with contractual agreements to neuter their newly adopted pets. Despite various incentives, many adopters simply refused to abide by the agreements once they had acquired the animals.

Some shelters found that litters from animals they had adopted out were being brought back to them, and that they were thus actually contributing to the overpopulation problem. They decided the best solution would be to neuter the animals before they were adopted, but the six month age restriction meant that puppies and kittens could not be altered.

Once it was determined that no compelling medical reason could be found in the veterinary literature to wait until the animals were six months of age, pediatric surgeries began to be performed. Dr. Leo Lieberman is the acknowledged pioneer of pediatric spay/neuter. He began performing the surgeries in the late 1970s, and they have been performed by shelters ever since.

http://www.aspcapro.org/pediatric-spayneuter.php

2012-04-29T10:47:57Z

@Painted Pony: Not that Im disagreeing with you, but who exactly is a conscientious reputable breeder? And how do I recognize them?

Are we saying that a class structure for dogs should be in place to allow SOME owners the right to breed and others not? How would this work?

And what is the acceptable shelf-life for unproven theories?

If this was a business, and every stray dog that a shelter had to feed was a cost charged to the business, they would have been broke decades ago. Just saying.

2012-04-29T10:52:09Z

@Kayleigh: Yes, interesting point on drug. But we also know prohibition in the 1930's didn't work. Its that whole Adam and Eve thing- Free will . :-)

2012-04-29T10:55:05Z

@Painted Pony: I happen to agree with your addition. I will s/n after 18 months. For whatever reason, I have managed to own intact dogs for over 30 years and never have an unplanned pregnancy. Whatever that means.

On cats - its different. Cats are free to roam. Whole other thread. This is a dog question.

2012-04-29T11:20:20Z

@Kayleigh: My father was a child in prohibition (during the depression) and there were stills where people cooked up their booze and sold it.... His family was poor so he used to to be one of those booze runners :-)

I am old, but not that old. (ha).

2012-04-29T11:28:36Z

OK, I apparently just made that up, because Prohibition was repealed in Ontario in the 1930s. Did I mention I'm old. (Now I will have to ask him)

2012-04-29T14:08:24Z

@Ariane: Those stats you quote came from HSUS? Kind of suspicious when the people that take your money are the ones providing the stats. And w hile what they say may be true, its what they leave out that I wonder about? They claim a lower rate of euthanasia today than ever before, but there stats are limited to HSUS - we have many more private rescues and "Mom and Pop" shops than in the 1970s which often take overflow from shelters or dogs that would otherwise be on death row. And many dogs are sold for science labs - its a neat and tidy way of keeping your kill rates low.

They claim the US per capita spend on shelters is $8 today - is that good? We don't know, because we have no numbers (historically) to compare it to.

2012-04-30T05:38:25Z

@Ariane: I enjoyed reading your last link. I admit a personal bias, I grew up in a time when women were routinely given hysterectomies - and now we know this is actually detrimental to health. Your article acknowledges that both humans and dogs fare better with ovaries. Its not anthropomorphic.

here is the article I found on stats - the devil is in the details. Note the dense urban centers like NYC have much lower numbers of dogs entering shelters and they admit the reasons for this are not completely understood. They note the problem with historical comparisons is the assumption that human population and dog ownership is related - and that may be true nationally, but not regionally.

http://www.humanesociety.org/animal_community/resources/timelines/animal_sheltering_trends.html

Ariane deR2012-04-29T12:58:27Z

Favorite Answer

I wouldn't have it done to my own dog before 18 months . On a personal , individual level for you or me, being capable of managing intact dogs, there is not a need.. & I am totally against mandatory spay neuter ADDED: (& even the ASPCA says there is no evidence such legislation helps reduce shelter kill rates. )

But looked at it from the broad perspective of the population issues and suffering caused by that, i can see why shelters s/n animals before sending them to new homes, including puppies and kittens, so they are not adopting out animals that then breed and the shelter maybe gets back 5 offspring from the 1 pet they adopted out
Unfortunately not everyone seems to be capable of managing intact pets, as we see every day on here including stories of accidental (or "accidental" ) pregnancies and people wanting to breed their poorly bred dog to some other poorly bred dog to sell "designer" mutts or yet more ". And there's suffering due to idiots irresponsibility breeeding with no health testing, no proper care for the b!+ch & pups, & sell/ give them to people without screening, or end up dumping them at the pound.

Yes there are still kill shelters but that is not evidence that there has been no progress. &. I do think the increase in spay /neuter including by shelters and by pet owners, helped by the increasing availablity of low cost spay neuter clinics, is likely a big part of the reason why shelter killing in the US has decreased since the 1970s when it was probably over 20,000 a year being killed. ( the first year there are national statistics was in 1985 and the number was 17 million . There are only stats for certain cities before that, but judging from those, the number was quite a bit higher in 1970 than the mid 80s. And in recent years it is now down to about 4 million with the majority being cats .) dogs estimated around a million.

ADDED -I will have to try track down where those numbers originally come from. The 1985 info I think was compiled by American Humane Assoc; The recent number is compiled from reports shelters make to the states ( that's how we know about PETAs 97% kill rate) or to other orgs. I think there really is a pretty broad agreement among people with long involvement in this incl. people who are no great fans of HSUS, that there has been a significant decrease in shelter intake & killing over the past few decades.
I am not suggesting that spay / neuter is the only reason. You are absolutely right that there are a lot more rescue groups around than there were in the 1970s and that has certainly also been a major factor.

Yes shelters sell animals to labs, but I really doubt that number has been greatly increasing since the 70s - 80s, since some places now have laws against it. & also I would guess the number of lab animals may be less than it was then, for various reasons

I just don't think that the part about the decrease in national intake AND kill rates less than a few decades ago is a big conspiracy, nor that s/n has played a role in that.. In some parts of the country where surveys have found s/n rates are very high, you can hardly even find puppies being turned in at shelters anymore & some shelters are transporting pups up from the South (where the s/n rate is lower)

ADDED, CONT. This is not to say I don't see something that DOES sometimes look like a sort of loose conspiracy to only tell people the positives to s/n Here is an article on that. "The unspoken truth about spaying and neutering our pets"
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2010/04/06/petscol040610.DTL

Anonymous2012-04-29T17:41:16Z

Nice theory, and you know how i feel about all the spay/neuter crap that everyone seems to love. This is going to sound completely irrelevant, however.....

"If early Spay Neuter is such an effective tool to stem pet overpopulation - why after 40+ years of use are we still in a huge mess?"


You could apply this sort of thing to a lot of things in life. Like the problem with drugs for example. While we have the best rehab facilities, drug councillors and drug detection police to date, the UK is still rife with drug users and drug induced crime. Why? The average human. People will do what they want, regardless of rules, problems, or what's supposedly best.

Now back to the subject: While neutering tiny puppies makes me heave, there is obviously no question that those dogs won't be adding to the problem in the future. However, there are tons of people that don't bother because they don't agree with it, they can't be bothered, or they WANT to breed their animals. People that do spay/neuter do so because they honestly believe it's for the best. You can see it from the answers in here. And once people truly believe something is right, it's nigh on impossible to change their mind. And that, i believe, applies to most people

I can't really answer the rest, doggy health and such isn't really my strong point!

ADD- Well i'm not really sure what went on in the 1930's, that's 5 decades before my time! lol

?2012-04-30T14:32:06Z

It's a straw man to claim that shelters 'conspire' to push early s/n "propaganda" in order to boost income.

Shelters often have an arrangement with a vet who performs services for the shelter at a discount in order to get the shelter's business and the referrals to the adopters.

Shelters often include the S/N fee in the adoption fee, maybe at a discount over retail, and probably at premium over what they're paying the vet. Business for the vet, revenue for the shelter.

Thing is - it would be more profitable for the shelter to leave the scheduling of the paid-for S/N up to the adopter, 8 weeks, 8 months, whenever, maybe even never. Some adopters won't follow through, maybe they'll go to their own regular vet, and cha-ching! the shelter retains the full S/N fee.

It's also a straw man to suggest that because early S/N doesn't solve dog overpopulation all by itself, that it is a "failed policy". It's not the policy, it's the deployment. It's not widely deployed enough to have more of an impact.

That said, I'm not for early S/N. I'm for the approach I outlined above. Make the adopter pay for it up front, and then let them decide when to do it. That's how the shelter I got my dogs from did it, that's how the shelter I volunteer for does it.




.

ms manners2012-04-29T19:44:25Z

Collusion seems like a strong word. :o)

I am not comfortable with juvenile S/N, no matter what they say.

However, I do not ascribe to the school of thought that attributes neutering to a number of medical ills, either. Every animal I have had in the last almost 50 years has been neutered, and I have seen none of the supposed problems associated with it.

I also do not agree with legally required neutering, because only the responsible will abide by the law, and those are not the people causing the problem in the first place.

I would like to see lost cost neutering programs, though. I think the cost (which is quite high where I live) is a deterrent.

Land-shark2012-04-29T17:32:59Z

If you were raised on a farm like I was you'd see how a stable cat population can explode once you take your eye off the ball. We had two and then within a couple of years it turned into more than 20 once they'd got loose in the barns. They had to be rounded up and the ones we kept, neutered.
Same thing can happen with BYB dog breeding and feckless opportunist owners. You'd end up with a massive feral dog population too... maybe they form pack and bite the *** of people with loony ideas?
If shelters let their breeding age dogs back out into the public they'd breed like rats again and there would be even less space in the shelters. Not just a no-brainer so much as a disingenuous argument.
S/N? Always a contentious issue but given that people expect to take responsibility for nothing these days then it is more necessary than ever.
I've had many spayed dogs and only one ever needed Proin, and the number with mammary cancer was zero.

Show more answers (5)