If the Trinity is of pagan origin, what is the evidence?
I keep seeing people make the claim that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity is of pagan origin, but I've never seen anyone actually provide any real evidence of this. I've been unable to find a trinity in Egyptian, Hindu, Babylonian, Assyrian, Greek, Roman, or other religions - all of which have been variously named by various people who make this claim. So I'm asking anyone who claims that the Trinity is of pagan origin to clearly articulate specifically where it came from, what religion, what the tenets of the originating religion specifically were regarding their trinity, and exactly how this pagan belief became the basis of the Christian doctrine of God. Demonstrate a clear causal relationship. Provide hyperlinks to reliable sources. In other words, I want some truly convincing evidence.
2012-11-14T21:28:49Z
Aravah, I do appreciate your answer, but your answer is essentially an explanation that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity is not the same as Jewish doctrine and thus by implication must be false. It fails to address the possibility that God could have given a further revelation of His own inner life. In any case, I think your argument is good, but it stopped short of what I'm looking for. You began with a negative argument - what the Trinity is not. That's fine, but I'm specifically looking for a positive argument which clearly demonstrates a causal relationship of pagan origins for the doctrine of the Trinity. If you can expand on your answer in this manner, it would be very helpful.
johnno is actually a bit more on track than anyone else so far - particularly with the claim that Plato conceived of a trinitarian notion of God which "can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions." However, even this quote you cite doesn't give any substantial help suc
2012-11-14T21:31:35Z
...such as a source I can go look up and read what Plato taught. It doesn't demonstrate that Plato's teaching influenced Christianity. The statement that Plato's notion of a trinitarian God can be found in all the ancient pagan religions is unsubstantiated by specific examples with verifiable citations. If you can provide that, it would be helpful. All the other quotes you provide, johnno, do nothing except speak of the theological development of the doctrine of the Trinity in the early centuries of the Church; they do not demonstrate a pagan origin for the doctrine of the Trinity. Finally, johnno, would you please provide a hyperlink to the source for the quotes you posted?
carl2012-11-16T20:21:49Z
Favorite Answer
There is nothing like the Trinity in any other religion. This has been debunked before. Johhno, Quotations taken out of context prove nothing. It is actually called a fallacy by association to take two similar things and claim that one must have led to the other. Many things come in three's. To have three of something is not the Trinity. Anti-Christians have been comparing Jesus with many pagan gods. The trouble is they can not make up their minds just which pagan god Jesus is. They had so many gods that Jesus couldn't even walk down the street without being compared to one.
People who say that the Trinity comes from pagan religions don't really understand the Trinity. The nature of God being one being yet 3 divine Persons. Not 3 gods in one. But 3 Persons in one God, with each Person possessing the one divine Nature. The Trinity is a formula for understanding the nature of God in the Person's of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is like a beautiful painting of a waterfall. Very beautiful but pales in comparison to the actual water fall. Understanding the Trinity in theological terms is like looking at a painting, but actually meeting God face to face is actually meeting the person behind the painting. St. Thomas Aquinas, one of the greatest theologians in history, received a revelation from the Lord and he said all that he had wrote was like straw in comparison to meeting the Lord. Not that what he wrote was not good or true, but it was nothing like meeting the real thing. Our limited minds can not comprehend God.
"In 1272 Thomas took leave from the University of Paris when the Dominicans from his home province called upon him to establish a studium generale wherever he liked and staff it as he pleased. He chose to establish the institution in Naples, and moved there to take his post as regent master.[37] He took his time at Naples to work on the third part of the Summa while giving lectures on various religious topics. On 6 December 1273 at the Dominican convent of Naples in the Chapel of Saint Nicholas after Matins Thomas lingered and was seen by the sacristan Domenic of Caserta to be levitating in prayer with tears before an icon of the crucified Christ. Christ said to Thomas, "You have written well of me, Thomas. What reward would you have for your labor?" Thomas responded, "Nothing but you Lord." [47] [48] After this exchange something happened, but Thomas never spoke of it or wrote it down. Because of what he saw, he abandoned his routine and refused to dictate to his socius Reginald of Piperno. When Reginald begged him to get back to work, Thomas replied: “Reginald, I cannot, because all that I have written seems like straw to me”[49] (mihi videtur ut palea).[50] What exactly triggered Thomas's change in behavior is believed by Catholics to have been some kind of supernatural experience of God.[51] After taking to his bed, he did recover some strength" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aquinas
"For example: "The Egyptians had a trinity. They worshiped Osiris, Isis, and Horus, thousands of years before the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost were known" (Robert Ingersoll, Why I Am an Agnostic). This is not true. The Egyptians had an Ennead—a pantheon of nine major gods and goddesses. Osiris, Isis, and Horus were simply three divinities in the pantheon who were closely related by marriage and blood (not surprising, since the Ennead itself was an extended family) and who figured in the same myth cycle. They did not represent the three persons of a single divine being (the Christian understanding of the Trinity). The claim of an Egyptian trinity is simply wrong. There is no parallel. " http://www.catholic.com/tracts/is-catholicism-pagan
@Aravah: "One, but the Christian Scriptures describe Gd as divisible into three parts called a trinity"
FYI, that is not the Trinity. Your explanation of the Trinity shows that you do not understand it. God is not divisible into 3 parts. God is one being who has one divine Nature. And he can not be divided since God is spirit. Each Person of the Trinity possesses the one divine nature. They do not share the one divine Nature as if it could be divided. Each Person fully Possesses it. We normally think of one being as only having one person. But God is one being who has 3 persons. And, each person has to be defined carefully, which I am not going to do here. But, just to say that a person describes who it is while being describes what it is.
"Then God said, “Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness." - Gen 1:26
it truly is Pagan, it isn't actual. Neither Jesus or the Apostles spent each and every time speaking about a " Trinity". If this replaced into authentic, might want to we not discover web page after web page explaining this doctrine? The Apostles were curious of many stuff.They needed to entice close even as the dominion might want to be accepted, even as the end circumstances might want to be.. how is it that if the trinity doctrine were authentic that not one of the disciples might want to factor out it? Is one to have self belief that it replaced into an huge-spread actuality back then? Ask any Jew about God being 3 in a unmarried... and it might want to be termed Blasphemy.
if i can read it right here and now for my own self in the 21st century, then all the insinuations about the doctrine being pagan cannot be true unless the whole bible is pagan.
The Father is God (see John 6:27; Ephesians 4:6; 1 Peter 1:2) The Son is God (see Mark 5:19-20; Luke 8:39; John 8:58) The Holy Spirit is God (see Luke 4:18; John 14:16-17, 26; Ephesians 4:30) There is One God (see Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 43:10; 1 Corinthians 8:4)
see how the doctrine can be established without reference to any pagan ideas?
The angels have the phone box.2012-11-15T00:46:24Z
How have you not found triads? Seriously. How have not found at least a couple of Roman ones? They were widespread enough that some scholars think the form may be from before the Indo-European split.
We don't have to go into the history of all of that though. We can look simply at a popular form of religion now known as mysteries or salvation religions. The first was in Egypt, emerged from agricultural/ fertility rituals and centered around a narrative in which Osiris was murdered and brought back by Isis. Devotees were thought to share in his defeat of death through the consumption of his body in the form of baked wheat cakes and ale. Horus completed the cultic triad, with the high priest taking on the role of Horus (the god's son) to perform the ritual. Sound familiar? It's the eucharist of the Last Supper. Just a good while earlier. :-)
When Romans encountered this, they adopted it to suit Dionysus, an increasingly multi-facaeted agricultural deity originally from Thrace. There were several Dionysian variants which also involved Zeus and various gods/goddesses to complete the triad. Dionysus was incorporated into the Eleusinian mysteries as well; Demeter and Persephone are the other two in that triad. The Eleusinian mysteries were an agricultural cult dating to circa 1500 BCE, by 500 BCE they were well established as salvation rites. The Orphic mysteries were slightly later (although recent evidence has pushed the date on that back and more may be found); their theology was a complex system of multiple triads. Zeus and Dionysus were both significant in that.
The Roman approach to religion was heavily syncretic. They freely appropriated and adapted elements from any religion they came across. Since they had access to Jewish texts, it actually would have been weird if they hadn't tried to make variants which drew on them - no matter how badly they had to mangle and distort them. Authenticity wasn't a Roman concern. %-) When they were coming up with new salvation religions, they typically borrowed a deity from an 'Eastern' (non-Greek) culture, added or subtracted whatever was needed to complete the paradigm (dying/returning mythoi, companion deities to make a triad, mastery over the fertility elements of grain/bread, grapes/wine and fish, etc), and wove him into a salvation narrative. Details of the inevitable fate that the rites would save devotees from were dependent on the philosophical underpinings (this is where Platonic influence comes in) and became more complex as the centuries went on. With Osiris, it was simply death. The Eleusinian mysteries introduced Tartarus and eternal punishment, Orphism the precursor theology for original sin and damnation without salvation.
Do you see how trinity is actually a minor element in all of this? Look at the theology - that's what matters. It is thoroughly pagan. A somewhat peculiar form of pagan belief, but one that was quite popular and widespread.
By the time Christianity came around, there were PLENTY of triadic examples from which to draw. It wasn't anything like a new revelation. Even if Justin Martyr and others were inclined to claim that the pagan versions were just the devil planting distractions ahead of time. :-)
Trinity is found only in Christianity but the 3-god model is similar to triune gods is found in pagan religions. Trinity transformed Christianity polytheism of three gods into monotheism of one godhead 'in words' and thus making it attractive to replace the once popular Sabellianism Christianity.