Should only wealthy "productive" people have first rate, expensive medical care in the USA?

Spreedog, I read two questions here. First the comment of the attending cardiologist is one representing an elitist philosophy and such has always been with us. Each may have a differing perspective, but, as the saying goes, a rose by any other name . . . . .

For example, it could have been President Woodrow Wilson who believed that the United States should be run only by an educated elite and with such a perspective formalized (in government circles) the Progressive movement. Those who consider themselves as a member of the elite group (however defined) fond it very easy to justify their group receiving the best (however defined) of every thing. What they have in common is the using of government power to enforce their desires.

Such a perspective has been with us (Homo Sapiens Sapiens) since the first tribal group.

Are only wealthy people worth saving in America? Somewhat flippantly I can answer, in what time, in what culture, in what nation, has there been a situation when the wealthy (define as people in charge if you will) didn’t take care of themselves first? With wealth comes power and with power comes the attitude of taking care of me and mine first.

Assume that you have wealth and your son requires a new kidney but is far down the list of those who are waiting. You will honestly tell me that you won’t use all of your wealth to save your son even if it means someone else (not wealthy) goes without and dies!

To couch the question in the way it has been put (and answered to a significant degree) is to put within the context of class warfare and base it on the idea that healthcare is finite. Certainly such is common throughout most of history, but does it have to be so?

I know that it has become politically correct, and makes everyone feels good, to say we are all equal and all should get the same health treatment. Beside the fact that such an approach has never been true in any society, the goal should be to provide the maximum amount of healthcare that is available to as many as possible. And, to continually improve on it year after year.

Government controlled healthcare has been historically proven to not be able to accomplish such a goal. In fact, such systems (and the various versions and degrees of them) have demonstrated that healthcare overtime will degrade and be less and less available to the average individual (remember those who are rich and in power will get what they want no matter).

To do this the healthcare system must be continually evolving and developing new products and services and less costly methodologies of providing the healthcare. Government and government controlled systems cannot do this, but the private sector does so every day. Yes, the evil, terrible Capitalistic Free Enterprise (for those who really want to understand I recommend boning up on Austrian Economics.) To produce a new drug, it takes time, facilities, equipment, chemicals (and all sorts of things) and this is all costly. In other words, it takes capital. Capital that is invested with the desire to earn a profit. Those who do the work have to have the opportunity to earn increasing income (maybe through a patent.) For these people to be able to do this they have to know what they are doing and that requires education (probably never ending) and experience and all of that costs money.

Even with a controlling government America has developed and evolved the best healthcare system in the world (unless you want to go to Cuba where family cares for the patient in the hospital including taking their own toilet paper, that’s sarcasm folks).

Is it perfect, no! But government intervention is not the answer. For example, a more competitive environment should exist for insurance companies. There is over 1,300 of them in the United States but nearly all States only have 2 or 3 or 5 or 6 selling within the State. That’s not due to the insurance companies, it is federal governmental control through extra-constitutional use of the Commerce clause (here you might try reading Justice Joseph Story.)

Now it appears that the federal government is going to take over the healthcare system. Now you’ll have the close up opportunity to see rationing, price increases, and many doctors and nurses retiring. The healthcare system which has done better for everyone (including the have nots) is about to be destroyed and government employees will make the decision for you as to what type of care you can have. Just think, Barney Frank can now make the rules for your healthcare.

Technically they should not receive "free" health care, which ironically costs taxpayers a lot each year so free is not the correct phrasing. True emergency services are of course a different issue and are given to all without question. The problem is that many in the medical industry have the don't ask, don't tell policy and are reimbursed for their time and services by we the taxpayers. Not sure why some think that age makes a difference but unless there is some bizarre law in your state, medical treatment was not meant for non residents of this country.

I love most of these answers, there ought to be more than one "best answer" award ! I am not trying to compete, just adding another answer.

Imagine ! The President and uppity-ups in Enron, and AIG Insurance, etc, etc... being the ones to get first-rate health care, and all these Answerers -- well sorry, no health care for you when they pull in their money nets and cause a recession and oh, when you're in between jobs because of it. Wasn't the American Revolution partly to break away from a caste system that worshipped Royalty and let the regular folks suffer? America's new "Royals" are rich by the labour of regular, hard-working, un-rich commoners who are stuck in faithful compliance with the Schystem, and only the rich should get quality health-care??? Wake up America! Honour your patriots who fought to break away from such an elitist, uncaring system. Let all your people get the care they need when they need it most, even if they are down-and-out. Why should anyone suffer even more by not getting quality health-care just because they aren't rich. Why should anyone have to lose their house and savings if they are unlucky and get sick or injured in some accident? Where is the justice in that? Also, is money the only way to measure the value of a human? Einstein came to USA as a refugee too didn't he?

(Thanks for finding that Einstein quote Knighthawke)

ps- if someone wants to say "that's communism" or "that'll ruin the economy", just look at communist China, people have to pay directly for their Doctors and hospital visits, and richer people get a better chance at quality health-care. Both USA and China are unlike Canada. Canada is not communist, and Canada's economy is prospering even with our universal health-care system. Also, politicians and bureaucrats are not the ones who make my health-care decisions here in Canada, its up to me (the patient) and the Doctor, not a politician or a bureaucrat.

Wow! A cardiologist with no heart. Amazing.

Of course he's wrong. Poor, unproductive people can become productive and wealthy if they have the opportunity to improve their health. Period.

Of course, I'm a Christian, which many people would find disgusting and bourgeois, but it influences my opinion on health benefits - that all human beings deserve them, regardless of age, income level, education, or even good health practices.

I don't think that. I do however don't think we should help pro long the lives of people in jail for major cricrime smurder, child molesterr, etc.) I don't think DR's and hospitals should turn the avaraverageson away even if money is an issue because the everyday people keep the USA going and help the wealthy people stay and or get rich.

My answer is a flat out NO, Why? Are they any better than the poorer class of people? Just because one doesn't have the money of another, doesn't mean their contributions to society are any less valuable. Not monetary wise, but through education and lets face it, just plain decency. More rich people are corrupt than those who don't have money. First of all we are being told by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMMS), their analysis of "Obamacare", will save all of us money and stimulate the economy. Stop laughing: I'm serious. That's what we're being told by the radical leftist in charge of our government. Conn Carroll from the Heritage Foundation read their report and provides us with the CMMS findings.

"Obamacare:

1) Raises health care costs.

2) Causes millions of Americancs to lose their current health care coverage.

3) Forces millions of Americans to pay fines and still receive no health insurance.

4) Causes millions of seniors to lose their Medicare Advantage plans,

5) Places millions of Americans on welfare,

6) Jeopardizes Medicare access for all seniors and,

7) Worsens health care access for the poor."

I didn't make this up. I'm giving you a direct quote. The hospital my sister is suppose to have back surgery, will no longer accept her Medicare Advantage plan. She's 67 yrs old, Now she has to look for others means of insurance.

Luckily, the Senate took that bill and modified it. Sen Harry Reid (D:NV) got his grubby hands on it and crafted it into something his "friends" can be proud of. The CMMS issued another report this past Friday regarding Reid's version. The following re the CMMS' conclusions:

"1) Health care costs would rise by $234 billion,

2) 17 milllion Americans would be forced out of their existing health insurance,

3) 19 million Americancs would pay $29 billion in taxes/fines and receive no health care in return.

4) 33% of all Medicare Advantage customers would lose their helath care plan,(Like my sister did)

5) 18 million Americans would be put on welfare.

6) The $493 billion Medicare cuts would force 20% of Medicare providers to become unprofitable thus jeopardizing access to care for all senior, and

7) The explosion in Medicare redipients would exacerbate existing health care access problems for the poor." Sobering isn't it? These CMMS reports are the good news, especially if you are a senior citizen or disabled American. You see? This is what I read in a local newspaper, The following is a quote from that paper.

"Government run, nationalized health care cannot work. It simply will not have enough money or resources to provide quality care for everyone. Instead, it ends up providing horribly mediocre care for most. We know this because it has been tried in both England and Canada and has been disastrous in both instnaces. To make it work, the government is going to 'ration' health care. It simply means that newly formed gov. agencies or boards comprised of bureaucrats will make decisions on who gets what health care" Needless to say, the old and the disabled will not receive treatment. My last quote from this paper and the great Journalist who wrote it, says,

"Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, who is the brother of President Obama's Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel.bluntly admits that the cuts in Health Care will not be pain free. Instead, they will require changing how doctors think about their patients. Emanuel wants doctors to look beyond the needs of the patient and consider social justice, such as whether the money could be better spent on someone else." So to me, it won't matter if you're rich or poor, bottom line is, if you're old or disabled, then treatments will go to those who have a better chance at life and perhaps more quality of life. Why did all this have to change. This isn't for the better. It's going to make all of worse off in the long run no matter what your status is in this country. Just don't be old or disabled. then you can get all the treatments you need because the old seniors and disabled won't even be considered for it. I'm done

Conversely, should those who pay more taxes have to fund medical insurance for those who can but will not pay for it? Cursory research will lead you to conclude that the wealthy and poor alike both receive first rate medical care in the USA. Who gets it has never been the issue. Who pays for it is however an issue in contention. This is why socialized medicine would fail here as it has in other parts of the world. It inevitably leads to rationing.

Everyone should be equal. Everyone should have access to the health care they need. As a human race, we should be taking care of our fellow people no matter what they look like, where they live, how much money they make, etc.

People should get the level of care they pay for.

*****

We can offer a safety net for the truly indigent...but it should NEVER be the same level of care...and should cost less.

The 1600 page plan talked about nurse run clinics. That works for day to day issues of the indigent..INSTEAD of them riding in a tax i to the ED for a cold..and we the taxpayer paying for it.

Further...I fell FRAUD will be rampant if we insure all -- all the MIAMI crooks..will be for procedure after procedure.

The OTHER doctors I talk too say Medicare fraud is RAMPANT.. Expanding willmake it much worse.

and finally the CORRUPT system..had ONLY one medical person on the so called health care panel....It was staffed with SEIU, ACORN and Union Folks, BIG Pharma, and someone to make sure BLACK PEOPLE get care..and medical schools lose funding if they don't give preference to accepting BLACK students.

It really is NOT about rich white folks except to slap them with a $54,000 a year or more surcharge special tax. and to set up convulted suytems so rich white folks can't get care...they just pay for it.

what really is going on is:

1) UNIONS WILL NOT LONGER have TO PAY FOR EXPENSIVE HEALTH CARE BENEFITS..'CAUSE THE government AKA TAXPAYER WILL PAY.

2) for them is to make WHITE PEOPLE PAY FOR CARE, DENY THEM CARE, AND THEN GIVE ALL THE MONEY TO BLaCK FOLKS...AND ILLEGALS ...AND THEN WHITE FOLKS THAT WANT decent CARE PAY FOR IT ALL AGAIN.

3) Kickbacks, bribes, control.

4) a panel ..committee, etc...so congress is out of the blame loop for denying coverage.

NOW...15% do not have health care... why screw up the system for everybody and create 47 government agencies etc...that focus on BLACK folks..

This is a MAJOR scam...and a SHAM.

This is 1/6th of the economy.

So to answer your question, 85% of folks in America have first rate health care now. they may have high deductibles...a thousand or two thousand dollars... but they can set aside for it in an HSA.

If 85% have health care why are we messing around with a convoluted hard to understand corrupt package that is unproven, untested and unintelligible?

Poor folks do have care in America...medicaid....funded jointly state and fed.

Problem is corruption...and anchor babies...and illegals..

LIKE OBAMA's aunt..why is she still here in government housing????

WHY??? The demoncrats want to buy votes and ensure they are permanently in control so they can tax and spend us into oblivion.

46% of Americans pay ZERO income tax...some get paid from us..they get FREE money..live in Subsidized housing, Get bus tokens, lunch tokens..and we pay pay pay pay pay for their lifestyle.

They get so much, they really don't want a job because they lose so much of their "entitlements"

I say no pay taxes NO VOTE!

Dr. Travel

Few things in the world are less productive than wealthy capitalists. The capitalist is the ultimate welfare-queen. He does no productive work of his own yet lives like a king by legally stealing the wealth created by the productive members of society.

Most capitalists despise taxes. But the biggest tax on working class people is the capitalism tax --- that portion of the wealth they create that is siphoned off into the coffers of the welfare-queen capitalists.

"The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. We see before us a huge community of producers the members of which are unceasingly striving to deprive each other of the fruits of their collective labor—not by force, but on the whole in faithful compliance with legally established rules." -- Albert Einstein (Why Socialism)

http://www.monthlyreview.org/598einstein.php