Christians/Jews: Which of these do you believe *actually* occurred?

Hard to play your game seeing as the stories you tell are not how I read them.

Still, I'll bite ...somewhat

Preface -- for a religious monotheist EVERY birth and death are from God.

So to say "God killed him" is redundant -- well, of course God killed him. How else does one die?

Likewise it is redundant to say "God sent the animals" - for the same reason.

So

The story of Judah's sons in Genesis is part of the mythologized clan history introduction to the legal system.

There is no reason to insist that everything in it happened precisely as written.

But they are not just "moral lessons".

They are stories about grandpa and uncle and cousin.

Anyhow -- considering how embarasing this particular story is to everyone involved, including the founder of the chief tribe of the 12 tribe confederacy, the likyhood is that its pretty darned close.

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The book of Numbers is an integral part of the 40 year period of the development of the Jewish legal system. It is essentialy current events.

The story of the fellow collecting wood for a fire is a piece of case law. (Caveat -- your re-telling transforms the story for your prejudicial purposes ...)

Since the Torah is fundamentaly a book of laws, this can be considered as the most direct type of story in the Torah.

The law presented is not a "moral point". It is law.

That said, unlike the American system, the Jewish system allows the building of case law on fully developed hypotheticals (I have read hypotheticals in 1500 year old Jewish books about taking a helicopter into the Temple).

So - was there an actual fellow who was executed? The story is at the very least incomplete. It is, for instance, missing some indicia of Jewish due process. But at the same time ...I don't see any reason to think this was a hypothetical. I do not believe it is in any manner presented as such.

Thus - I'd say the event happened - but the text does not provide anywhere near the whole event -- only the single point that is used to illustrate this law.

As for the poisonous snakes.

(again you retold the story in a very non-representative manner ...still)

Why do you think they were magical??

I don't see anything unbelievable about the notion that there was a mass event of poisonous snake attacks in the camp. How exactly that staff is supposed to have worked in relation to the snakes -- no clue.

The staff hung around for quite a while after the Exodus. It was destroyed by king Hezekiah because people were starting to make it the focus of worship. So ...must 'ave been a very cool staff whatever it was.

I'd say the event happened AND was written into the text with a moral purpose in mind.

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Oh, forgot --

The boys, bears, and Elisha -

so again -- you totaly bolloxed up the story in the retelling.

Lets say like this -

A lone traveler is walking along a lonely road when a gang of maybe five dozen kids begin to trail him shouting out abuses.

Two female bears attack the gang, ripping apart 42 of them before the rest can escape.

Did this happen?

The Book of Kings is, with respect to events prior to the Babylonian captivity, a secondary source scholarly history. It was completed towards the end of the Babylonian exile. At some point in the 6th century BCE

(the last events mentioned occur under Awil Merodakh - heir of Nebuchadnezzar II, died 560 BCE.)

The chronicler who wrote it was using pre-existing sources which he often cites directly.

The story of Elisha and the bears is not a political story, it is not a public event, it does not tell about "The Kings"

Why is it there?

Certainly the only relevance of the story of Elisha and the bears is moral -- it is a fable to teach kids not to be douche bags.

So -- could the story have happened? I don't know enough about the behaviour of the types of bear inhabiting Israel in the circa 8th century BCE.

But -- there is realy no need for it to have happened.

Most likely the source was some sort of "Teachings of Elisha" -- and likely was orginaly told by Elisha as a first person adventurous fable.

Likely, the deaths of these people were mistakenly attributed by overzealous people to a direct punishing act of God.

Even today, people still blame God for natural disasters, illnesses and other things that importune them.

Cause and effect is real but doesn't work that way. And trying to understand God's ways is rather hubristic and a waste of time anyway.

Christian

All are true and God did these things ! The real question is WHY?

1. These young people had NO regard for the Profit, who represented "the word of God", therefor God killed them.

2.Onan was the second born of Judah by his canaanite wife, whom God had forbidden (all) the Israelites to marry. So Judah SINNED in marring her, and Er his first born of her was wicked and God slew him.

Onan likewise was wicked in spilling his seed/sperm upon the ground. God had commanded them to be fruitful and multiply, and by spilling his seed on the ground was a disregard to God's command, and Onan's greed in not wanted to obey God's command to give seed for his dead brother. Therefor God also killed him. A message for all men who masterbate. God may hold the punishment until the day of Judgment, or until that person has died in his own sins.

3. NO LABOR of any kind was to be done on the Sabbath day.

One of the 10 commandments. Remember the Sabbath day and KEEP it holy.

For God himself labored 6 days in all the creation, and RESTED on the Sabbath. So ought we. There was NO command to go to church and worship on the Sabbath. IT is a day of REST. Man was created to work and labor. Adam was put in the garden of Eden to dress it and Keep it.

The man who gathered wood, could and should have done so on the 6th day, and honored God by RESTING on the Sabbath. PAYS TO LISTEN AND DO WHAT GOD COMMANDS.

4. Because of the children of Israel's complaining and disbelief towards God while in the Exodus from Egypt, God sent the serpents to bite them as a judgment. The serpent on the Pole represent what Jesus was to fulfill at his coming, ( which was to suffer and die upon the cross) God told Moses to tell the people that if they looked upon the serpent on the pole, they would live. Those who looked upon it, lived. Those who did not died.

So it is with our Jesus. All who do not look toward him shall perish.

John 3:14 KJV

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must "the son of man" be lifted up.

The son of man is Jesus Christ.

I believe they're all true. They all happened in the Old Testament when mankind was living under the law. After Jesus came, we began living in a state of grace.

both are right