Anti-choicers: explain why until ~150 yrs ago, Christianity said a fetus was not alive until it began kicking?
Catholicism changed its collective mind in 1869; general Protestant attitude changes followed after that.
2007-07-09T13:32:26Z
Pope Pius IX; Catechism no 366
2007-07-09T15:35:56Z
Meg, 366 was used by Pius IX to say that the soul was present at conception, not during "quickening" as previous Popes had declared.
In fact, even though Pius IX wrote his letter in 1869; the Canon wasn't updated until 1917 declaring excommunication for anyone who got an abortion (under the new definition). Before Pius IX's declaration, there was a distinction made between an "unensouled" fetus and an "ensouled" fetus. His letter states that this was a "dramatic and drastic" change from tradition, which is true, since Gregory XIV had stated exactly what I claim earlier.
As an ex-Catholic, I own a copy of the Catechism and possibly know it better than yourself.
Hope this helps you out, and is what you were looking for.
eV2007-07-09T19:13:32Z
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Now that's an interesting one. I like the term, "anti-choicers" especially.
The bible also has lots of references to slavery and torture, which is widely regarded by Christians as wrong. So if that part isn't true, then why is Genesis true?
*edit* Is "Obi-Wan" serious? I'm ... speechless. Is he really that ignorant?
*edit* The term pro-life clearly insinuates that liberals are anti-life. anti-choice is a clever response to that. lighten up.
You know, we're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't. People just love to hate the Christians. George Peach it is NEVER ok for any christian to bash others. But people are angry if we don't change, and they're angry when we do. For instance, the church once believed the world was flat. And everyone today loves to poke fun at that. Now, we're once again accused... because we did change. This may help you understand: Canonical Misconception: Pope Pius IX and The Church's Teaching on Abortion ISSUE: Has the Catholic Church always taught that abortion is a grave sin? If so, how do you respond to the charge that the Church only declared abortion to be murder in 1869 under Pope Pius IX? RESPONSE: The Catholic Church has always taught that abortion is a grave sin and has always prohibited Catholics from cooperating in or procuring an abortion. This has been the clear and constant doctrine of the Catholic Church, as even the ancient Didache, a first-century document that conveys the teaching of the early Church, affirms: “You shall not procure abortion, nor destroy a new-born child”[1] (cf. Acts. 2:42, Catechism of the Catholic Church, nos. 2270-75). What became clearer over time, because of advances in biology, was the issue of ensoulment, i.e., when the soul is infused into the unborn.[2] In addition, the action of Pope Pius IX in 1869 was one of changeable discipline, not a change in doctrine. In this case, the Pope merely removed the distinction between the “unensouled” and “ensouled” fetus, making the canonical punishment the same for abortion at every stage because the soul is infused at conception (Catechism, no. 366).[3] While the Church does not change her doctrine, she can modify the penalties for violating that doctrine as she deems appropriate. Thus, while a complete description of all the ways in which abortion offends God has not always been completely understood, the fact that it is a grave offense against God has always been taught.
You're thinking of Judaism which has always held that the breath of God is not in the fetus until the beginning of movement (the third month); until then it is inert matter. Catholicism developed the ensoulement doctrine well before 1869. You don't seem to recognize the diversity of Judeo-Christianity. You should specify which faith and what denomination supposedly had no ruling on the matter until 1869,and provide a source. Reform Jews have departed from the traditional interpretation. Modern Catholics no longer feel it is worthwhile to even bother with a concept such as ensoulement,since genetics informs us that the fetus is genetically unique at the moment of conception and hence a human individual.
>>Catholicism changed its collective mind in 1869<<
I'm sure you won't mind providing a credible source, preferably a Church document.
>>Pope Pius IX; Catechism no 366<<
You found that on some site and, admit it, you have no idea what it means. Why don't you share with us a quote from that Pope and that Catechism that supports your contention?
Due to the limitations of medical science in those times, no one knew that even a very immature pre-born baby was actually a fully formed living person.
They figured life was only present if it was noticeable (kicking ... movement).
The present day teachings of the church reflect what we know today, that life begins at conception.