Anti-choicers: explain why until ~150 yrs ago, Christianity said a fetus was not alive until it began kicking?

Now that's an interesting one. I like the term, "anti-choicers" especially.

The bible also has lots of references to slavery and torture, which is widely regarded by Christians as wrong. So if that part isn't true, then why is Genesis true?

*edit* Is "Obi-Wan" serious? I'm ... speechless. Is he really that ignorant?

*edit* The term pro-life clearly insinuates that liberals are anti-life. anti-choice is a clever response to that. lighten up.

You know, we're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't. People just love to hate the Christians. George Peach it is NEVER ok for any christian to bash others. But people are angry if we don't change, and they're angry when we do. For instance, the church once believed the world was flat. And everyone today loves to poke fun at that. Now, we're once again accused... because we did change. This may help you understand: Canonical Misconception: Pope Pius IX and The Church's Teaching on Abortion ISSUE: Has the Catholic Church always taught that abortion is a grave sin? If so, how do you respond to the charge that the Church only declared abortion to be murder in 1869 under Pope Pius IX? RESPONSE: The Catholic Church has always taught that abortion is a grave sin and has always prohibited Catholics from cooperating in or procuring an abortion. This has been the clear and constant doctrine of the Catholic Church, as even the ancient Didache, a first-century document that conveys the teaching of the early Church, affirms: “You shall not procure abortion, nor destroy a new-born child”[1] (cf. Acts. 2:42, Catechism of the Catholic Church, nos. 2270-75). What became clearer over time, because of advances in biology, was the issue of ensoulment, i.e., when the soul is infused into the unborn.[2] In addition, the action of Pope Pius IX in 1869 was one of changeable discipline, not a change in doctrine. In this case, the Pope merely removed the distinction between the “unensouled” and “ensouled” fetus, making the canonical punishment the same for abortion at every stage because the soul is infused at conception (Catechism, no. 366).[3] While the Church does not change her doctrine, she can modify the penalties for violating that doctrine as she deems appropriate. Thus, while a complete description of all the ways in which abortion offends God has not always been completely understood, the fact that it is a grave offense against God has always been taught.

You're thinking of Judaism which has always held that the breath of God is not in the fetus until the beginning of movement (the third month); until then it is inert matter. Catholicism developed the ensoulement doctrine well before 1869. You don't seem to recognize the diversity of Judeo-Christianity. You should specify which faith and what denomination supposedly had no ruling on the matter until 1869,and provide a source. Reform Jews have departed from the traditional interpretation. Modern Catholics no longer feel it is worthwhile to even bother with a concept such as ensoulement,since genetics informs us that the fetus is genetically unique at the moment of conception and hence a human individual.

>>Catholicism changed its collective mind in 1869<<

I'm sure you won't mind providing a credible source, preferably a Church document.

>>Pope Pius IX; Catechism no 366<<

You found that on some site and, admit it, you have no idea what it means. Why don't you share with us a quote from that Pope and that Catechism that supports your contention?

Due to the limitations of medical science in those times, no one knew that even a very immature pre-born baby was actually a fully formed living person.

They figured life was only present if it was noticeable (kicking ... movement).

The present day teachings of the church reflect what we know today, that life begins at conception.

I don't have to explain why, since your claim is false.

The Bible has said, since Exodus chapter 21, that an unborn baby is a life.

Exodus 21:

22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

If you accidentally hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely, but there is no serious injury, the man must be fined whatever the husband demands and court allows. However if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life.

This says the man who kills an unborn baby has taken a life so therefore he must pay with his own life.

Who cares what some religious leader has to say? This is what God Himself has said on the matter.

Pastor Art

New Testament Christianity has NEVER stated that. Do not confuse catholicism and their man-made edicts with Biblical Christianity.

In Luke 1:15, John was said to be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. "And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit”(Luke 1:41). Here was the meeting of Mary and Elisabeth. The angel had appeared to Mary and told her that she would conceive, "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus” (Luke 1:31). Then in verses 36 and 37 we read: "Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. For with God nothing will be impossible." Then verses 39 and 40: "Now Mary arose in those days and went into the hill country with haste, to a city of Judah, and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth." These are the verses leading up to the verse 41 previously quoted which says that the babe “leaped in her womb.” The babe (the “brephos”) leaped in her womb! That is a significant statement. Yes, life begins at conception and not at birth.

Is the unborn child alive or dead? There is no question about the fact that he is alive. Is he animal or human? He is human. Is he endowed with a spirit from God? Yes, the unborn child possesses an eternal, immortal spirit. “Let us make man in our image,” the Bible says. Man is made in the spiritual image of God, with an immortal spirit. That spirit certainly is within that child before he is born.

An Old Testament passage which reinforces the fact that abortion is a form of murder is Exodus 21:22-25. This is legislation pertaining to a situation in which an unborn child might be harmed. "If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman's husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if any harm follows, then you shall give ‘life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.’”

"If she gives birth prematurely," when this struggle occurs, “and no harm follows,” means the woman had a miscarriage, but there was no loss of life. In that case, the one causing the miscarriage paid a fine according to what the husband determined. But the text says, "if any harm follows,” meaning the mother or child died, then, it was "life for life.” The one who caused the death of the mother or the unborn child paid with his life. How could there be a clearer passage revealing how God views the unborn child? He is a child created in the image of God, while yet in the womb.

Probably because science showed that a fetus really was a baby earlier than that, same reason they changed they mind about a geocentric universe.

Where did you read that? Apparently somewhere that Christians don't go, huh? I'm a Christian and I believe that abortion is wrong. I don't believe it to be wrong because I am a Christian. I believe it to be wrong because, Christian or not, people go to jail everyday for murder. A fetus has a heartbeat from the moment it is formed so that means it is a living thing. Abortion is murder... Plain and simple.

Balaam good afternoon.

The preferred title is Pro-lifers. Do you want us to call you Anti-lifers?

The Catholic Church never has and never will have any authority over me or my beliefs. Nor does any protestant religion that you can name.

I only care about the truth.

Nice to hear you braying again.