...that the existence of God can't be proven the same way everything else in the Universe can?
There's plenty of stuff out there that's invisible to our senses -- cosmic rays, gravity, distant galaxies -- yet human ingenuity has managed to deduce some pretty specific and concrete things about them. Why then can't we do the same with God? Why do Christian apologists try to use logic to "prove" God (e.g.; Thomas Aquinas); then, when they're blown out of the water, they backpedal and make the unfalsifiable claim that God doesn't have to play by the same rules? Why don't we have one datum -- not one solitary scientific fact about God?
Didn't he used to be a Big God? An Obvious God? A God who walked among his people daily and performed miracles on command, like he did for Elijah? Why is he now reduced to skulking around in subatomic-sized gaps in our knowledge, hoping no one will come looking for him and trying to claim ownership by default based on our current ignorance?
2008-03-19T05:26:03Z
To Death from above: The religion of the individuals you mention had no more influence on the work they did than their favorite color, if they were doing their job as scientists properly. And as atheists like myself have pointed out countless times before: the person making the positive claim bears the burden of proof. You don't feel the need to actively disprove all the thousands of other gods humanity has worshipped throughout the millennia, without having any evidence for...do you? Of course not -- you say to those people, "Put up, or shut up."
Same rules apply to your god.
And yes, I was there to help deliver my son. It was a bloody, awful, gory mess -- exactly what you'd expect from human animals made of meat -- no holy light was shining from my wife's nethers that night, I can tell you that....
Anonymous2008-03-19T05:07:27Z
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That's what bothered me the most when I was trying to find reasons to believe.
I am a Druid. For those unfamiliar with Druidism, we are the more scientific side of Wicca. Lets address each point individually. Bookstores are bookstores. Each follows its own guidelines. I find that those who list Pagan books in the New Age section usually have a poor selection. After notifying the management of their mistake, I do NOT patronize that store again. I have never had YA suggest mythology. Maybe it is because of the way the question was worded. Remember, the selection of where the question goes is done by computer. It recognizes certain words. Misconceptions? OH YEAH. P*SSES ME OFF. Pagans/Witches same? Yes, I get a little miffed at stupidity. I do not do "stupid". BUT, this is the place for them to ask, and LEARN. Real religion. Usually I try to inform them of the US Constitution, the US Military, the VA, and the New Jersey school system. The constitution guarantees freedom of religion(First Ammendment). The Us Military is adding Pagan "Chapels" to some of their bases. Jails now have Pagan Chaplains. The VA (with the "help" of Selena Fox, Circle Santuary, and Lady Liberty League) has authorized the pentacle on the memorials of American Soldiers. Youtube has a great video of the ceremony at the memorial of "Wiccan Warrior" Sgt Pat Stewart. I have stuff saved about each aforementioned battle. If you wish, I can email it to you. Contact me directly The satanism thing may NEVER go away. Too much Christian baggage. In Philadelphia, my Witches group is about to "clean out" a house. A "satanic" altar was found by a new tennant. Personally I dont believe that satan exists, BUT, other people do. This belief gives rise to all kinds of other manifestations. Unfortunately, on YA, the general rule is "P*ss on everybody elses beliefs." Again, thats not gonna go away soon. Yes, I get p*ssed, but there have been a few times when I actually HELPED someone. That makes it "all better". A very empowering feeling. Dunstan, A Druid Ovate (teacher) I really enjoyed Safyres comment about Paganism having its own section.....AND I AGREE.
And as far as why that Universal Presence (am going to stop referring to it as "God" and "Him"....doesn't really fit with my concept, and have only ever used those as terms of convenience anyhow...well maybe might let a "God" slip in every once in a while, again for convenience) is so hard to find now, that would be our fault. We've turned our backs on it, *not* the other way around. The human population lives primarily in the physical now. We've lost our connection to spirit. We don't connect to the forces around us the way we used to. We don't have to. And we're encouraged not to. In fact, it's frowned upon to do so to a certain extent. And that which we tout as "spiritual" is really nothing more than theatre and ritual. Going through the motions without true meaning. We've been miseducated IMO as to the true nature and intent of this presence, and so we are looking for the wrong thing, in the wrong places. Of course we're not going to find our way back that way.
This is a very good question. Not because I necessarily agree or disagree with you, but it hits at the heart of the only true discussion about the difference between religion and science: *how* we know what we know. (Star for you.)
I think I'm on pretty solid ground saying that science is naturalistic. It relies on evidence that is empirical, naturally occurring, and can be verified in the same way by everyone. The conclusions drawn from said evidence explain things within those same naturalistic parameters.
The existence of God obviously doesn't fall within these natural parameters--any existence of any god has to be something outside of our natural experiences (i.e., supernatural). So, how then do we try to find the evidence of his/her/its/their existence? Or should we even be looking for evidence--should personal testimony and questionable historical documents be enough to validate the existence of something supernatural?
Since religion is essentially philosophy, which set of rules do we follow? At least, with science, you have a set of rules to follow (naturalism), everyone knows them, and everyone agrees to them.
I've been on just about every side of the religion debate (of the Christian variety) you can think of--from being raised in a very liberal denomination (UCC), to atheistic tendencies during and just after college (leading to outright denial of God at one point), to becoming "born again" within a fundamentalist congregation. Now, as an agnostic, I think I'm wise enough to understand that just about anything considered "truth" is relative and subjective, and anyone claiming "absolute truth" usually isn't being all that honest (either with themselves or with their audience).
It doesn't bother me because Christians although I believe them to be sincere, got it wrong.
They claim that God created everything, knows everything and is everywhere yet within their own book (the Bible) creation was not one God but Gods with an S. And if you want more proof in Gen. 3:8, 9 after the original sin (eating from the tree of knowledge) Adam and Eve hid. Yes they hid from God and God called out to them because HE couldn't find them. UGH If the Christians are going to believe part of it, they have to believe all of it. Other Gods......Using the plural Elohim in Gen 1: 26, 27, 28 and then changing to the singular Yahweh (the god that couldn't find them in the garden of Eden) in Gen 2:7, 8 etc.
First they need to find a consistency and stick with it.