Does it ever bother you...(see below)?

That's what bothered me the most when I was trying to find reasons to believe.

((((Rev))))

I am a Druid. For those unfamiliar with Druidism, we are the more scientific side of Wicca. Lets address each point individually. Bookstores are bookstores. Each follows its own guidelines. I find that those who list Pagan books in the New Age section usually have a poor selection. After notifying the management of their mistake, I do NOT patronize that store again. I have never had YA suggest mythology. Maybe it is because of the way the question was worded. Remember, the selection of where the question goes is done by computer. It recognizes certain words. Misconceptions? OH YEAH. P*SSES ME OFF. Pagans/Witches same? Yes, I get a little miffed at stupidity. I do not do "stupid". BUT, this is the place for them to ask, and LEARN. Real religion. Usually I try to inform them of the US Constitution, the US Military, the VA, and the New Jersey school system. The constitution guarantees freedom of religion(First Ammendment). The Us Military is adding Pagan "Chapels" to some of their bases. Jails now have Pagan Chaplains. The VA (with the "help" of Selena Fox, Circle Santuary, and Lady Liberty League) has authorized the pentacle on the memorials of American Soldiers. Youtube has a great video of the ceremony at the memorial of "Wiccan Warrior" Sgt Pat Stewart. I have stuff saved about each aforementioned battle. If you wish, I can email it to you. Contact me directly The satanism thing may NEVER go away. Too much Christian baggage. In Philadelphia, my Witches group is about to "clean out" a house. A "satanic" altar was found by a new tennant. Personally I dont believe that satan exists, BUT, other people do. This belief gives rise to all kinds of other manifestations. Unfortunately, on YA, the general rule is "P*ss on everybody elses beliefs." Again, thats not gonna go away soon. Yes, I get p*ssed, but there have been a few times when I actually HELPED someone. That makes it "all better". A very empowering feeling. Dunstan, A Druid Ovate (teacher) I really enjoyed Safyres comment about Paganism having its own section.....AND I AGREE.

Maybe we're looking for the wrong thing.

And as far as why that Universal Presence (am going to stop referring to it as "God" and "Him"....doesn't really fit with my concept, and have only ever used those as terms of convenience anyhow...well maybe might let a "God" slip in every once in a while, again for convenience) is so hard to find now, that would be our fault. We've turned our backs on it, *not* the other way around. The human population lives primarily in the physical now. We've lost our connection to spirit. We don't connect to the forces around us the way we used to. We don't have to. And we're encouraged not to. In fact, it's frowned upon to do so to a certain extent. And that which we tout as "spiritual" is really nothing more than theatre and ritual. Going through the motions without true meaning. We've been miseducated IMO as to the true nature and intent of this presence, and so we are looking for the wrong thing, in the wrong places. Of course we're not going to find our way back that way.

This is a very good question. Not because I necessarily agree or disagree with you, but it hits at the heart of the only true discussion about the difference between religion and science: *how* we know what we know. (Star for you.)

I think I'm on pretty solid ground saying that science is naturalistic. It relies on evidence that is empirical, naturally occurring, and can be verified in the same way by everyone. The conclusions drawn from said evidence explain things within those same naturalistic parameters.

The existence of God obviously doesn't fall within these natural parameters--any existence of any god has to be something outside of our natural experiences (i.e., supernatural). So, how then do we try to find the evidence of his/her/its/their existence? Or should we even be looking for evidence--should personal testimony and questionable historical documents be enough to validate the existence of something supernatural?

Since religion is essentially philosophy, which set of rules do we follow? At least, with science, you have a set of rules to follow (naturalism), everyone knows them, and everyone agrees to them.

I've been on just about every side of the religion debate (of the Christian variety) you can think of--from being raised in a very liberal denomination (UCC), to atheistic tendencies during and just after college (leading to outright denial of God at one point), to becoming "born again" within a fundamentalist congregation. Now, as an agnostic, I think I'm wise enough to understand that just about anything considered "truth" is relative and subjective, and anyone claiming "absolute truth" usually isn't being all that honest (either with themselves or with their audience).

How's that for a non-answer answer?

It doesn't bother me because Christians although I believe them to be sincere, got it wrong.

They claim that God created everything, knows everything and is everywhere yet within their own book (the Bible) creation was not one God but Gods with an S. And if you want more proof in Gen. 3:8, 9 after the original sin (eating from the tree of knowledge) Adam and Eve hid. Yes they hid from God and God called out to them because HE couldn't find them. UGH If the Christians are going to believe part of it, they have to believe all of it.

Other Gods......Using the plural Elohim in Gen 1: 26, 27, 28 and then changing to the singular Yahweh (the god that couldn't find them in the garden of Eden) in Gen 2:7, 8 etc.

First they need to find a consistency and stick with it.

Blessed Be

It only bothers me because it causes so much difficulty for people for whom the existence or not, of God actually matters.

In honesty, even that doesn't bother me.

What bothers me is the acreage of "monkey (evolved or created) chatter" that goes on about a question which has no answer.

It's right up there with the dogs that live two houses along, barking all day.

There's nothing I can do about it, I've learnt how to tune it out, but sometimes it's still a bother.

That has bothered me; but I'm OK with the idea that there are things that could exist and be beyond my perception or understanding. It seems more likely to me than not that the universe did not come about by mere happenstance.

Some people can deal with that, others insist on absolute proof.

To those who need proof, it seems more likely than not that the universe did come about by a lucky turn of events based on probabilities that, no matter how inconceivable, are nonetheless still possible.

To each his/her own.

No, hypothetically, God created the universe and its laws of physics, so that would mean His nature resides beyond the boundaries that we use to describe the universe. Things such as cosmic rays, gravity, and galaxies are all a part of the physical universe (though some might be undetectable by certain human senses, they are still detectable by instruments limited to physical senses).

God is not bound to the universe, so rather than being undetectable by certain senses and detectable by others, He is undetectable by it all because He's not necessarily a component that makes up the universe, its laws, and its physics.

That's why God doesn't have to "play by the same rules", and it's extremely contradicting to be called "God who created the universe" yet still be bound to the laws of the universe.

I'm not sure why people are so confident that God does not exist, to be that sure you must be god yourself to hold such a knowledge...

http://godandscience.org/apologetics/nogod.html

EDIT - Who cares about religion? The question of Intelligent Design has absolutely nothing to do with which religion is correct. God, when applied to an argument such as this one, would be Creator of the universe, not "oh was it the one that wrote this holy book or that holy book"?

Not really... actually there is a lot of other stuff that can't be proven that is speculated to exist: dark matter and anti-matter for example. On top of that, there are other things that are unexplainable, yet we know they had to happen: non-living matter becoming living matter for example (sorry, lightning striking goo isn't an explanation until it is scientifically proven possible (i.e. done in a lab)).

There are a lot of things we take for granted and through out our history plenty of scientific theories have been assumed true before they could be proven (relativity, black holes, etc.) I have no problem believing something that can't be proven true, as if that was a valid maxim we would be stuck back in the dark ages in science.

There are things in science that we don't understand. You seem to imply that we know everything or, at least, enough to find God and expose him to the World. Your ignorance on the nature of God is obvious, as is, your knowledge as to the purpose of life.

Your questions and a statements show that you have already made your decision, so why ask the question?

God is all powerful and all knowing. He has a perfect body. He does not act like the gods of mythology who made flawed decisions, succumbed to their passions, and who did whatever on a whim. He obeys his own laws.

He sent us here to grow in a way that could only happen with a physical body and the ability to choose right from wrong. Of course we make some errors in judgment. He sent his son, Jesus, to live an exemplary life, to suffer and pay the price for our sins, die, and overcome death through the resurrection.

We need faith.

How do we know we are right about our scientific knowledge? It is changing all of the time. There i nothing in science that is absolutely concrete.

It is your choice to believe or not believe. There is a spirit world but to prove to you is evidence of things unseen. I have answered prayers as my footstool and really why throw pearls to non-believers, I will shake off my dust and walk away. I am sorry regarding your spiritual crises and hope one day you will find the answers and I will pray for you.