Bunkai question, regarding interpretations of forms.?
I will try to keep this concise, as I know there are several real Martial Artist here that will have some good opinions on this.
I read often about Bunkai and people "finding hidden techniques in Kata". How much do you think this was truly part of the original art, and how much do you think this is merely ones interpretation of kata in which his own skills and imagination allow him to interpret another technique that is never truly in the art until he places it as such.
Much like people assign different meanings and interpretations to the Bible.
Meaning, say I shoot my arm forward in a kata. I realize it is similar to how I shoot my arm in for a choke. Does that mean a choke was part of the kata, or the art and that it was a hidden technique? Or does that mean I interpretted something out of a simple movement that then made the choke part of the kata, something I solely perceived as is in fact my own technique. Not anything hidden or lost, just something I was familiar with and thus chalked it up as Bunkai, or a hidden technique within the kata.
After all, that same arm thrust could be a punch, could be the beginning of a clinch, could be a eye gouge, a pressure point, etc.
In tying in with this, do you feel that kata is meant to be simplestic so one can interpret any particular motion as the beginnings or part of a technique? Meaning one motion could be ten different techniques?
Is it that it is truly a "hidden" technique, or lost part of the art. Or is the evolution of a Martial Artist to add new techniques that he has interpretted on his own to the art. For example Shimewaza (choking techniques) that might not exist in the infacy of the art, but because a practitioner or Martial Artist is aware of them, they can then suddenly see how a movement is similar to a choke, and therefore considers that technique a hidden, or lost part of the kata?
For example it is interesting that many Traditional Arts that never before included grappling have now found "grappling within the Bunkai of a kata". Mind you I am well aware that prior to the grappling explosion there were Karatekas and schools that did have grappling aspects to their arts. I don't dispute that. However I do wonder if with the grappling explosion going on, the great many "highly advanced ranks" of many arts are suddenly seeing a great deal more grappling techniques "hidden" in the kata.
Do you think this was because it was originally there? Or because Martial Artist being exposed in the slightest to other techniques are seeing how certain movements are similar or could be interpretted to those new techniques for the individual.
Your thoughts are appreciated.. basic ideas of Bunkai, hidden or lost techniques, or maybe that you feel finding these techniques that aren't truly part of the everyday curriculum of the art is the purpose of kata. OR do you feel that people suddenly finding these techniques as interpretations are like those who find interpretations of the Bible to suit them. As in "My art has grappling, see how I move my leg here in Sanchin, that is meant to be a leg sweep"..
Just curious, all thoughts welcome.
2009-05-06T11:05:27Z
Awesome answers here, leaving this up for a while to keep getting great and different insight.
callsignfuzzy2009-05-06T14:30:26Z
Favorite Answer
I think that the original interpretations were lost to history, by and large. Many kata are over 100 years old, and I have to wonder how much information was actually passed down. Asian martial culture is built in a very hierarchical manner, and only chosen "inner door" students are taught the "secrets". In addition to this culture of secrecy, I think our own human frailties led to the original meanings being lost. An inner door student meets an early, unexpected death before passing on his knowledge; a student alters a technique because he thinks he's got a better way of doing things; failing memories cause more techniques to be lost or altered. Even from one school to another, within the same system, we sometimes see variations in how the kata are performed. For years, the vast majority of karateka didn't know what some movements were for, so they offered their best guess. I've got a book full of interviews of karate sensei; one from Japan confesses that when American GI's starting asking what certain techniques meant during their post-war practice, he and the other sensei were at a loss, so the started making stuff up. And this spur-of-the-moment interpretation, produced without much forethought or experimentation, got passed on to the next generation of karateka.
The differences between how the kata are performed are important when one is thinking of bunkai. Take even the basic movements of Shotokan as compared to the movements of Matsubayashi Shorin-Ryu. In the beginning of many kata, the practitioner moves to face his left; in Shotokan, this is done by stepping in that direction, while in Shorin-Ryu, the practitioner steps forward, then pivots to face left. Are these differences important? I think they are. Stepping straight into the theoretical attack means you're either crashing the lines or pre-emptively attacking, while the step-and-pivot takes you off the theoretical line of attack and keeps you at a distance.
For years, because kata seemed unrealistic to me, I all but abandonded their practice. In the past three or four years I've begun to re-examine them. I won't pretend to have all the answers, or even a lot of them, but I'm trying to keep an open mind. My guidelines for bunkai are:
-They must be realistic (pressure-tested against common attacks).
-They must reflect the movement in the kata (otherwise, what's the kata for?)
-They must make sense to me.
I must confess that I dislike the idea of a movement having more than one interpretation, but it seems perfectly viable. To this end I've taken a cue from Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming, and looked for a striking, locking, and throwing application of each movement set.
Anyway, I'm just one guy of many who are trying to put meaning to the forms that we've been practicing forever. I'm sure others have much more success than I have. But to your question, do they reflect the original meaning? I'm sure in some cases they do, but that's just the law of averages. I'm sure someone has come up with bunkai that matched the original, but until the kata's creator can point and go, "Yes, THAT'S what I meant!", we'll never know for sure. My two cents.
I do believe many techniques were hidden. Now many of those techniques are lost because no one knows what they are today. Some of them have been passed down while other were forgotten. Today it leave for private interpretations. There are 1001 possibilities within any kata. Much like when you are working on self defense techniques separate from your kata. How many ways can you block a punch? How many different ways can you counter attack? How many way can you finish off the attacker? How many ways can you control the attacker or use them as a shield if there are multiple attackers? How do I respond to an attack without leaving myself open to a counter attack? As we can see it is an endless amount of possibilities.
I believe something were taught by the old masters many years into a karateka studies. Some never completed the training and never learned. Some were never taught because the old masters past away without teaching them. The knowledge was left that there were hidden techniques. This left other with private interpretations. This also left other not teaching the art correctly simply because they do not know. Hence a kata being a dance for lack of a better term. Like Shihan J said the kata is your style. Id a person knows the style Shorin Ryu, they would know that the styles is made up of joint locks and pressure point strikes. It is very little kicking. The kicks are low kicks. But I dare you to go into most shorin ryu schools and you will find students practicing high kicks and jumping spinning kicks. Hmmmm. Many of those student will not be able to execute a simple wrist lock let alone a bent arm lock. I don't even need to mention a reverse bent arm lock
since non of us were there during the creation of the kata, we cant say what they meant a move to be, karate, has always contained grappling techniques, such as throw, locks, trap, etc. this there is no doubt in. what the bunkai and or oyo is in the kata, you have the obvious technique, a strike or block then you have the grappling part what we often say is hidden. neither bunkai nor oyo mean hidden, that is more of a misinterpretation of the words. take the kata naihanchi this is one of the most misunderstood kata, it has always been a grappling kata, but when i was originally taught this kata 30 years ago, i was told the bunkai was just blocks and strikes, i was not originally taught the grappling parts.
when a novice looks at a kata he sees the obvious a strike or block, when a person that knows the kata or has a more advance understanding of kata, he can see what is a more appropriate bunkai to it or the so called hidden bunkai.
i think the term hidden bunkai or lost bunkai are more of a poor description of what we are describing. Gichin Funakoshi once said it takes 3 years to learn the most simple kata, this more likely because while the movements can be memorized in a few hours the bunkai and the perfection of the movements cannot. the old master use to only learn 1 or 2 kata the referred to the kata as ryu because this was there style, so passai was passai ryu, and naihanchi ryu. all the self defense techniques are inside of the kata for the style, now a days many people teach self defense separate because they have no understanding of there kata. kata with out bunkai and oyo are completely useless. the person that created the kata very well may have had more then one interpretation for. i know if i had created some of them i would have, but since they lived long before most of us we wont know what there intent was. most of karate and kata was handed down to us through an oral history and little was written about its early development.
edit:> a lot of great answers to a great questions thumbs up to everyone
I feel that if the movement of the kata takes you there, that technique is part of it - whether it has been discovered before or not at all, by anyone - including the highest ranking/inheritor/hanshi/kancho/jukucho, kaicho - whatever. Just because they didn't extract it or discover it doesn't mean that the ap is not part of the kata.
Again, if it takes you there, then that's what it is. Believe me, it will take you there and other places too!
Not all of the leadership in Okinawa are versed in the knowledge of extracting hidden meanings.
There are definite concrete aps for all the techniques in all the kata, and we are learning them today. Even some of the Okinawan Leadership are learning them, after their Master has been dead and buried.
One of my Teachers is Taiwanese. I loved him immediately as soon as I listened to his logic. He was the assistant instructor of Chang Tung Sheng - the Iron Butterfly, before he passed.
Laoshr, which is how Taiwanese Senior Instructors are addressed - not Sifu, said it simply.
There was always someone who would ask him "what do you do if someone _____'s you?"
He would say "I don't know!, I don't care! - it's my art that does it!"
The other guys just didn't get it. They always wanted answers like 'you block a punch like this'.
I remember a day when a big guy from eastern Europe came to the gwan. He was a Dolph Lundgren type.
Laoshr was teaching Crane Spreads Wings from Tai Chi. The guy was grumbling under his voice as Laoshr applied the technique to us in the class. He noticed Dolph's murmurings, so he said -
"Okay, you come here". The guy got up and came on the floor and Laoshr told him to grab him - we were grabbing him by the wrists. Dolph grabs and tenses up his muscles are now bulging, to try and stoop Laoshr.
Laoshr says - "oh, okay, he make muscle I do this!" This guy was about 6'4" and muscular. He dropped like a sack o' scat and the look on his face was a true kodak moment. I really wish someone was recording. He never came back.
I swear to the end of earth that this happened - I was there.
I included this to illustrate that application is not a fixed immutable thing.
This is where the theories of Yin Yang, Five Elements, Quadrant theory - come into play.
In my teaching method, I teach that each technique has multiple techniques and variations.
I believe that the "lost part" of the art is having the understanding that you will always find a new technique and the fact that the technique is there means that it was always there.
Some of the people I grew up with were students of GM Antonio Pereira - Founder of Miyama Ryu Jujutsu. I met his Senior students - Ibarra, Marquez and his Uchi Deshi - Shinan Negron.
Watching these Masters and hanging out with my buddies, I saw the whole curriculum and I can say that I was always able to spot techniques that were in my Goju Ryu kata.
When Laoshr told me that all the arts have the same techniques, just different delivery, I understood because I was able to pick it up.
Dude, answering this question was an exercise in itself!
Wow another excellent question, and I do nto know if my answer will do it justice.
I feel it is a combination of both "hidden" techniques and ones own perceprion. I do know that when I startesd training almost 19 years ago, back before grappling became so popular, my instructor was showing locks, chokes, and throws from our kata's, so in that essence, I think they were always there. I do think that the popularity of grappling has simply opened up more peoples eyes to the fact that standing grappling is included in kata, and they simply decided that they were hidden techniques.
As for ground fighting I really can't say, however I do know there is a version of Okinawan grappling called Tegumi, and that most of the great karate masters dids tudy it, so it is not beyond the realm of possibility that they included it. I have in fact seen ground technoques that look axactly like some of the standing motions in Nahachin kata.
I have seen the same moves interprited as striking by one person, grappling by another, and a combination of the two by yet another, and all of them worked for that person, but may not have worked for everybody. I think it has more to do with a persons experience and preference then actual set hidden techniques, and I also think this is part of teh reason that they say it can take a lifetime to master a kata.
There are only so many ways a human body can move, and I think we tend to forget that. I do think people tend to find applications in kata that suit them, and there fighting style, as opposed to those techniques having been "hidden" on purpose. I think they were designed to be able to be interprited many different ways.