Applying bunkai to Taekwondo forms.?

It would be nice if you could post a youtube link to the form. I am not familiar with that form even though it does remind me a little of some of the beginner forms I do in Karate. I will go from that assumption and I hope I understood your description of that form correctly.

In my Karate style the beginner forms actually do not present a bunkai at all. They are merely designed to teach a beginner basic things like step, plant your feet, then punch rather than walking a punch with one leg in the air like most beginners do. The turn you describe sounds a lot like that too. Being able to turn 180 degrees without losing your balance and land in a rooted stance ready to throw the next techniques does not come easy either. I consider the beginner forms baby steps so to speak. When teaching them I watch stances, balance, ability to generate power, etc. Sometimes I think we put way too much into the forms trying to find the secrets in the martial arts when sometimes the secrets are very simple, discipline in practice with lots of reps and being very meticulous when executing even the simplest move.

BTW when running higher forms I sometimes find new things, like generating power especially when you start tapping into the internal aspect of the art in the more complicated moves. Rather than struggle with the complicated move and to refine my technique it is easier to go to the simple forms you can do in your sleep every which way and try to refine the technique there, then take it back into the advanced forms. Internal things a lot of times are the same in the basic moves as they are in the more complicated moves. Thus you can incorporate what you practice in everything rather than just one move.

Hope that makes sense.

Your question brings up a good point and touches on the aspect that TMA was originally not slanted to be taught to young children in general originally. In Shito-ryu there are many knife hand strikes in kata at the intermediate and advanced levels and I think you can teach the kata first without teaching the actual application and them applying it in class until they have just a little more rank and maturity. Kids mature so fast in their thinking and there is a big difference in a nine year old and a ten year old in development if they are being raised properly. While that nine year old might be learning that is a shuto to the side of the neck they are not actually using and employing that technique until later in most of their training in my classes. Skipping over them in their training and them using and applying them I think is the right approach and the one that I take. As that child continues to train and study martial arts I can observe and view their attitude and approach and if they should learn lethal type techniques. I told more than one parent in the past that my school and classes were not for their child and to take them down the road where they play at learning and doing martial arts and not the real thing. This was often one of the things I would take into consideration when making such a decision along with the child's current approach and attitude towards things. A lot of schools play at teaching real martial arts and have a multitude of students that play at taking and doing martial arts. Can they learn enough to still hurt someone else? Most definitely I think but it won't be because I taught them or they were a student of mine. Beyond this I am not sure if there is anything else that can be done on my part that I don't already do. Your question does highlight a paradox though and I think the answer lies in downplaying some aspects until the student reaches a level of rank and maturity and then they practice applying and learning more in depth about those things that they might have been exposed to several months or more earlier in a kata or form.

Taeguek Poomsae's are designed around the concept of close combat. The first move FYI is actually Joonbi. Without incorporating Joobi the strikes seem to make less sense, but they are not that hard to understand.

Using Joonbi against a person grabbing you, let's say with a single hand, you have brought their head down to your solar plexis. You then turn into a Tiger stance and execute a right inward palm heel open hand strike to their ear to shatter their ear drum while holding them with your left hand - the reason you are in a Tiger stance is that you don't have space between you and the opponent. Next you perform a front snap kick to either the groin, gut, or chest depending upon the relationship of your opponent to you after the first strike. Following the kick, as you grab their head using the right hand and using the (makki) block you strike to the back of the head to ensure that your opponent is on the ground. This is one explanation.

A Second, skipping the Joonbi. Is that your opponent has attacked you - doesn't matter what they do as long as they are not kicking (a kick would not have us in a tiger stance, as this indicates the tightness of the fight). You block using your left hand and palm heel the solar plexus - which is the technically defined area of the strike - your opponent is now without breath, and in a very bad position bent forwards with their head exposed. You then kick out their knee with the front snap kick recoiling to allow them the place fall and striking with the other hand to the head to ensure that they remain prone on the ground. Alternatively you can kick to the groin and strike to the back, top, or side of the head - all of which have parts that can lead directly to death, ending the fight.

There are many other applications that I have not bothered to list here, these are just the first 3 that I had 'discovered' when working with a fellow Dan on our Bonhae. I know that no one has posted on this for 5 years, but having just seen this, I feel that the form - which is quite fun to execute - was not being given justice. Karate Dave's interpretations are also interesting, and I'm sure that we can all come up with many others. Much is just how one begins to see into the concept of the technique. Also, keep in mind that the point of Bunkai/Bonhae is to end the fight with your opponent incapacitated, so when studying the form, don't look for ways of locking the opponent, but rather putting them on the ground.

Wow........ I got lost in all the description. Good question though. Rather than try to get to detailed, let me say this. All traditional Kata has hidden applications in it. Taekwondo borrowed the concept of Kata. weather the forms are variations of Karate Kata, or made up from individual techniques, the moves are the same in that the applications are there. The comment that some of the Korean forms look as though they were hastily thrown together does not diminish the fact that the moves had hidden meaning before they came together as Korean forms.

I get that Korean martial arts does not pursue the Bunkai / hidden applications in the forms. It seems that the Okinawans and Chines tend to do this more than the Japanese styles. And the Koreans almost never broach the subject. It is my belief that the Okinawans did not share much of the hidden bunkai with the Japanese. The Koreans borrowed from the Japanese. If the Japanese are lacking some understanding of what they do, then it is logical to assume that the Koreans have even less of an understanding of the same techniques. There are always a few rare exceptions. but basically it is common for the hidden applications to not be known by most instructors, therefore the students don't know them either.

Before the late 1970's the terms Kyusho and Tuite were not something most martial artists had heard of. It was not until Seiyu Oyata began to openly use the terms and teach Americans the hidden techniques that the terms became known by the general public. If not for Oyata Sensei, we might still not be familiar with it.

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To be honest, I feel this is WAY over my head, so I'll just address some of the aikido-related points (for a more comprehensive answer from an aikidoka's point of view, refer to Shienaran's post).

1. Terminology

Okay, so, first of all. I was a bit confused about the aikido-related terms you used. Did some digging around, and I think I finally got it:

"Hentai" is something that's not generally related to martial arts. If you don't know what hentai is, it's probably for the best. If you can't resist the urge to Google it, don't do so in the office or on a shared PC. And be prepared to wipe your browser's history afterwards. Warning: what has been seen cannot be unseen...

So, I thought maybe you meant "hantai"; but that, it turns out, is another name for 'ai-hanmi katate-dori' (cross wrist grab). But since you mentioned that it involved pivoting and it was the opposite of tenkan, I think what you refered to is "tenkai".

2. Tenkai vs. tenkan

"Can anyone tell me if, in Aikido, it is ever appropriate to perform tainohenko with a hentai and not a tenkan?"

Short answer: no.

Tenkai is usually used AFTER nage has broken uke's balance, primarily as a way to further redirect uke by using the momentum of his/her whole body as opposed to arm strength alone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj3SoVIm80c at 0:08 is a good illustration of how tenkai is used within an aikido waza) So, again, tai no henko is never done with a tenkai. Tenkai would be more like a mid-technique transition.

Another option (from an aikido POV) would be irimi, entering with okuri-ashi or tsugi-ashi. But that would be an even more radical change.

I'm not sure if I got your description of the movements right, but from an Aikido and Karate stand point, first let me ask a rhetorical question to frame the context in which I'm responding.

You say in 2) Coming from a R block from 1) you perform Mae Geri with the rear leg and then go back into a Kokutsu Dachi while performing a Soto Ude Uke?

If that's the case, then the only explanation I can come up with is that the Left hand block at the end of 2) is a strike, not a block. Think of it this way, after you block or parry a right hand tsuki or knife thrust with your own right hand at the end of 1) you grab the wrist of his right arm that you just blocked then twist and pull it backward while kicking him in the gut at the same time, then slide back into a tiger stance while you jam your left forearm into his elbow still pulling and twisting his arm right arm in a sort of standing armbar all the while pivoting to face the other direction at the start of 3).

In Aikido, this is similar to the technique used in Shomen Uchi Ikkyo Ude Osae, only in this case, an atemi, which is the front kick to the gut, is added during the transition and a Tenkan pivot is not used because the point of the technique is basically to strike or break the opponent's arm or elbow and not to pin him to the floor as Ikkyo does. Hope that made sense.

edit: I just saw the video link you provided and I'm pretty sure that 3) is just a repetition of 1) to 2) only this one is for the left hand side.

Here's a link to the Ikkyo Ude Osae technique against a Mune tsuki or straight thrust to the body I was talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRNpNnflShg&feature...

If you notice, there is a moment in between his grabbing and twisiting of the Uke's wrist and then stepping forward to pin him to the floor, when he could throw a front kick, before he can jam his forearm instead of hand against Uke's elbow, this would then mean he does not need to step forward to pin him to the floor, but actually need to pull back into a back stance to further straighten Uke's arm and elbow to add more effectiveness to the forearm strike, because the straighter the uke's arm and elbow when it is hit, the more it hurts and be more likely to break or dislocate. But since in Aikido, the goal is to minimize injury to Uke, we are required to bend his elbow by stepping forward before applying pressure on it for safety. Karate and TKD has no such compunction, so I guess that's why this method(striking a straightened elbow) is used.

First of all I'm not W T F I'm I F A.

However in this regard we are the same. All T K D blocks are also strikes. We are expected to be able to do breaks with every block.

Many practitioners are not taught proper transitioning of foot work when changing stances. The form in our system is a little different. We use a cat stance which is a little different in that it is easier to get off a snap front kick if you have to. I never liked this form however I don't think it is as flawed as you think. Application is as you know very important. I'm glad and pleasantly surprised on your trying to unravel the applications. Consider it again with every block even the reinforced outer forearm blocks as strikes. Consider the foot movements done with a sweeping C- step motion as well. This is how I was taught and it makes sense to me. Of course in Wink Chung class I'm considered too Korean. LOL

I am not familiar with that poomsae so I did a quick look on youtube. I found these first four moves done two different ways in the first two clips I looked at in the first one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQH1cOQ6W_Q the first technique comes from outside to the inside.

In the the second video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=238fm_ZD0iw it is the exact opposite moving from inside to outside in more of a down block or ahrae mahki motion.

I am not sure which version you are working from.

Now for the second version suppose this is a defense for a grab attempt by the right hand or both hands of your opponent. I see the first move as more of a clearing and grab technique where you would move your right hand across your body grasping the right forearm of your attacker then delivering a front kick to his knee. As you step back into stance and bring the outside to inside block around think of it as an arm bar to the right arm the turn then becomes a throw or arm bar take down. That would cover the first two techniques.

Sorry that is about the best I can do from work with no live partner to work with. I would imagine that Kokoro or pugpaws, or Aaron J may have something more as they are much more adept at Bunkai than I am. You have me curious and I will have to play with this at class tonight. It may also be as you suggested that it just looked good and has no practical application due to a flaw from the creator.

Edit: I didn't have much opportunity at class tonight but I did come up with this on the way home. For the version in my first link which is the link you posted:

The left hand is a grab to the incoming left handed punch or grab. The second technique ( pressing block) is a strike to the elbow while your left hand pulls the attackers arm straight hyperextending the elbow. The front kick is to the left float rib or to the inside of the attackers right knee, you finish with an over hand wrist lock taking your attacker down, or Version 2: Attacker comes in with a right handed punch- The pressing block clears the opponents midsection for a groin kick or solar plexus kick which would cause your attacker to at least momentarily bend over at least slightly the inside to outside block would then be a strike to ST5 pressure point on the right side. Play with those and let me know what you think.

I hope I explained well enough without being to verbose.

Never knew bunkai was not as common in TKD. Anyway off the top of my head i would probably be using a little oyo (as we say in karate when we are a little liberal with the movements, to make it a little more combat ready).

1. Step to the side at same time as blocking left middle punch (they are now their left leg forward). Hold onto forearm after block.

2. Kick to ribs.

3. Use the second block has a hand movement (gripping shoulder; now both hands are on the body) for a takedown over the left leg.

To me keeping the left leg forward after the kick is telling me to keep it there for the takedown, but in this case would probably lose the "tiger stance" after the kick. It's true that it doesn't look as if bunkai was in mind in this particular kata.

Edit: Sorry, meant to say poom? As a side note people i meet in karate tend to nickname tiger stance as cat stance. bit of trivia

no