It seems that nobody is really logical anymore; even those who claim to make logical decisions are being dumb. For instance: "the countries with the highest qualities of life also have high percentages of atheistic populations. Therefore, atheism increases quality of life" as is the implication of many in this question: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100909001730AAHn5MN&r=w#PpxbCG3PDEQvgfnJZZpM
Keep in mind, this is not something against atheists or science, but rather against illogical people. The above statement is one of the most basic logical fallacies: correlation does not imply causation. Not to mention, something like the quality of life of an entire country is far more complicated than "atheist vs christian".
That's just an example. But it seems every time I get into a debate with someone (or an argument, same thing in my mind, really) I try to reason and they just repeat what they think is right. Perhaps I'm just blinded, but I like to think that I try really hard to be logical when I'm debating something.
Anyone else notice that people tend not to listen to reason very much?
2010-09-09T00:46:11Z
Yes, Gexi, your wildly illogical claims regarding quality of life and atheism spurred this question. But it's about illogical people in general, because I see SO much nonsense around nowadays that is so obviously wrong, yet so many people believe it. I try as hard as I can to be skeptical about everything, and I mean everything.
2010-09-09T00:48:26Z
Rebecca Laurie: I appreciate you and your well thought out answer. I would tend to agree with you with a lot of what you said. It's my personal belief that non-organized, personal spiritual beliefs will be more popular than straight atheism in the future, but that's completely opinion based.
2010-09-09T00:53:29Z
independent atheist: I agree with what you say about "taking sides" of an argument. On most moral and societal issues, I don't take sides often. However, the rules of logic are still the rules of logic; x and y, therefore z will always be logically infallible. They may be right, but they can't logically prove that.
Also, I'm not Christian or religious, but I'm glad you don't consider yourself above others for your lack of beliefs.
?2010-09-09T00:42:38Z
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It's actually the opposite. The countries with the highest qualities of life do indeed have the highest atheist populations. But atheism doesn't cause higher quality of life...higher quality of life and better education results in more atheism.
Atheists are more likely to be college-educated people who live in cities and they are highly concentrated in the social democracies of Europe. Atheism thus blossoms amid affluence where most people feel economically secure. But why?
It seems that people turn to religion as a salve for the difficulties and uncertainties of their lives. In social democracies, there is less fear and uncertainty about the future because social welfare programs provide a safety net and better health care means that fewer people can expect to die young. People who are less vulnerable to the hostile forces of nature feel more in control of their lives and less in need of religion.
The reasons that churches lose ground in developed countries can be summarized in market terms. First, with better science, and with government safety nets, and smaller families, there is less fear and uncertainty in people's daily lives and hence less of a market for religion. At the same time many alternative products are being offered, such as psychotropic medicines and electronic entertainment that have fewer strings attached and that do not require slavish conformity to unscientific beliefs.
Why atheism will replace religion http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/201005/why-atheism-will-replace-religion
It really depends on how the correlation is determined and not so much on the "logic". For example, we know through many studies that there is a strong negative correlation between education and belief. However, while you may have a valid point, it is not because of "logic" but because of determination of the correlation.
As far as "debating" goes, you are making an observation that is well known and repeated by both sides (regardless of what the sides are). You can not see where or if your "reason" is just what you think is right just as those you debate against can not as well. This is both an age old observation and an somewhat inaccurate one. Rarely do "debates" end up in anything else other than both sides thinking that they have won and that the other was being unreasonable, conversely the purpose of a debate ti to present both sides and perhaps educate listeners to all the issues.
"It seems that nobody is really logical anymore;...." "correlation does not imply causation."
It seems you are contradicting yourself, no?
There are still rationalists out there, we are a dying breed, you can thank the people who have engaged and promoted the Jutons & Eotons, Gunas, Demons/Devils, what ever your view is on who/what brings ignorance, who are the masses!
"I try to reason and they just repeat what they think is right."
Then it is an argument, how ever, if you both gave reason, then it would be a debate!
"Anyone else notice that people tend not to listen to reason very much?"
Yes, I call those people 'the masses', as it is that for the past... Lets us see, the neo-Hippie movement started in the 1960's... 40 years, promotion of stupidity, irresponsibility, and so forth, had lead to the downfall of humanity. Sure there are funny jokes of lesser mentality, but other than that, the people are, as Nietzsche said '.... --The breeding of the 'Christian'.'- THE ANTICHRIST, turn this over to more as 'the breeding of stupidity'!
Debate and arguing are two different things. In arguments you tend to try to yell over each other. In a debate you listen to one point of view without interruption then the opposing without interruption rebuttals are handled the same way.
Now to your logic question, on many topics right and wrong is relative to the beliefs one holds the most dear. Maybe what you consider logical another considers foolishness. Your Apostle Paul said as much, I'm sure you will recall "it is only foolish to them that don't believe". They find your thoughts just as illogical as you find theirs.
I do not believe I have a better life because of my beliefs or lack there of. There are some here who believe themselves better for their lack of belief, but that is arrogance no Atheism.
With respect, all the guy did was present statistics that suggested there was a correlation. He never claimed causation.
It's interesting that many of the countries towards the top of most "quality of life" rankings do tend to have a reputation, if not for atheism, at least with secularism. They also have a tendency to have reputations for being politically and social progessive (also terms associated, rightly or wrongly, with atheists).
Merely pointing out correlations is not, however, arguing causation.