What was the weight of the golden plates from which Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon?
I was reading about the "golden plates" and it is hysterical, my sides are hurting! Different people estimated the weight at 30 to 60 lbs. after giving the sack containing the plates a heft. Joseph's wife Emma talks about the golden plate book lying around the house and having to move it when cleaning! The dimensions are given, 7" X 8" X 4" which I calculate to be 224 cu. inches. If you do the math the gold plate book weighted 156 lbs! How big a women was Emma?
"Emma said that she remembered the plates being on a table in the house, wrapped in a linen tablecloth, which she moved from time to time when it got in the way of her chores."
What will people NOT believe when it comes to religion? Joseph Smith used big clown glasses in the bottom of his hat to translate the plates. The plates did not have to be in his possession while translating, as long as he had his clown glasses in his hat!
"For the earliest phase of translation, Smith said that he translated using what he called the "Urim and Thummim"—a set of large spectacles with stones where the eye-pieces should be.[103] There is no eye-witness testimony that Smith ever wore the large spectacles, although some witnesses understood that he placed them in his hat while translating."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_plates
2010-12-19T13:21:45Z
rrosshoft, the people who claimed to have seen the plates later admitted they had seen them in "visions" only. Joseph Smith claimed that viewing the plates would be deadly to anyone but him, how convenient. Too bad your evidence is from a Mormon website, like anyone with half a brain would believe that.
2010-12-22T05:59:54Z
Starlight, here is the info you requested;
Harris cries out, "Tis enough, tis enough; mine eyes have beheld; mine eyes have be- held;" (Ibid, p. 55). Even in this there is a conflict of testimony, for according to Harris, "I never saw the gold plates, only in a visionary or entranced state. ...In about three days I went into the woods to pray that I might see the plates. While praying I passed into a state of entrancement, and in that state I saw the angel and the plates." (Anthony Metcalf, Ten Years Before the Mast, n.d., microfilm copy, p. 70-71).
It becomes apparent from Harris' testimony and that of others, that this was a "visionary experience".
http://www.exmormon.org/file9.htm
"I never saw the golden plates, only in a visionary or entranced state. I wrote a great deal of the Book of Mormon myself, as Joseph Smith translated or spelled the words out in English. Sometimes the plates would be on a table in the room in which Smith did the translating, covered over with a clot
Aragorn2010-12-19T14:40:56Z
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If the material was pure gold, then the plates would be too heavy given the dimensions. But Joseph gets away with it, by having the description of the plates as the 'appearance' of gold. Regardless, we have the description from some of the witnesses, which ranges the book weighing I believe mostly from 40-60lbs. Someone, I can't remember who, I'll look it up for you, said the book felt as if it were made from common tin. Common tin also matches the dimensions and would weigh about the amount that the witnesses described.
Joseph Smith also had seer stones, different from the spectacles that were considered the urim and thummim artifacts. The seer stones were smaller, and he usually put one in the hat, and translated the book without needing to have the book in the room. He found the seer stones when he was a little kid, which are rocks that kids give magical properties to. He used to look for stuff with his dad when he was younger. Then we he got a little older, he used those seer stones to see treasures buried beneath the ground, guarded by the nasty native american treasure spirits!
So the entire story behind the plates, is so much more fulfilling than actually reading what Joseph 'translated' from the plates. The story of how he was to get them, how he got them, what happened after he got them, who tried to take it from him, and then the actual translation process, the angel taking back the plates...it's great stuff!
Wow nephihah, spare us atheists the self-righteous monologuing. We can do the same thing with our little group of "non-believers"...but listing out others to somehow further my own self-righteousness is not one of my fortes. I'm glad you pride yourself on using others' successes to push yourself higher on your horse, good for you.
How many people have been killed in the name of their god? Billions. People slaughtered. Men, women, children. What about killed in the name of the christian god? How many do you think? How about the muslim god? How many nephi? You seem to want to judge us all as atheists because some other psychotic prick decided to abuse their power, so why shouldn't I judge you for the men slaughtered in the name of your god? Or are mormons just that special, that their god isn't the same god that slaughtered first borns in egypt because some man wasn't listening? Should I really blame you for the ones responsible for the mountain meadows massacre? Oh, I forgot, you're one of the few mormons on this site that still denies those who were responsible were mormons...
Spare us the hypocritical viewpoint.
Here's some info about the 'gold plates':
It is very possible that the witnesses to the Book of Mormon may have been shown some plates cut from a sheet of rolled metal which had been coated with gold or something that had the "appearance of gold." Joseph Smith said that each plate was "not quite so thick as common tin." (History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 537) Martin Harris, on the other hand, maintained that "each of the plates was thicker than the thickest tin." David Whitmer felt that they were about as thick as "common tin used by tinsmiths." Mormon apologists might argue that if the plates had only been coated in some way to give them the appearance of gold, the person who made the "engravings" on them would have had a problem convincing others that they were genuine. The tool used to make the engravings would cut down into the metal below and expose the fact that the plates were not really made of gold. Apostle Orson Pratt, however, made a rather strange statement about some type of stain being on the plates where the engraving appeared: "They [the witnesses] describe these plates as being about the thickness of common tin... Upon each side of the leaves of these plates there were fine engravings, which were stained with a black, hard stain, so as to make the letters more legible and easier to be read." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 30-31) Such a "black, hard stain" could, of course, prevent the witnesses from noticing that the color of the metal in the engraved portions was different from the rest of the plates.
The person who did the calculation of 156 lbs took his weight measurements using how much a solid block of pure gold of that size would weigh. This is incorrect.
Joseph Smith describes a book of gold leafs bound together with rings. So, you have to factor in the air between the leafs of the book as well. Take a hardcover book off your book shelf. It weighs less than it would if it were a solid block of wood.
The anti-Mormon who conducted the 156 lbs weight measurement also didn't factor in the composition of the metal in the book. Pure gold is a very soft metal. So soft in fact, that it wouldn't even work for writing on anyway. The book would be unusable if it were pure gold. Most metalurgists who have been consulted on this point would agree that to have a useable book of leafs of gold, you would have to use a gold-copper or gold-tin alloy. These alloys are significantly lighter than pure gold (which has a high density for a metal - almost like lead). As such, Joseph Smith's book probably was not pure gold - and the 156 lbs weight measurement would be incorrect.
A more realistic weight measurement would be in the range of 60-80 lbs - definitely something you could move around and even hike through the woods with - if you were a strong 6 foot backwoods farmer.
You've also misquoted Joseph Smith. He never said other people would die if they saw the plates. Here's the actual quote:
"I should not show them to any person; neither the breastplate with the Urim and Thummim; only to those to whom I should be commanded to show them; if I did I should be destroyed."
No danger to others - just a danger to Joseph Smith himself.
Your statements about the witnesses seeing the plates only with their "spiritual eyes" are contradicted by other accounts we have from them as documented here:
Of course, I have already read your stunningly intelligent rebuttal that anything that comes from a Mormon source must be automatically wrong. I suppose on this impressive line of logic you would also reject any book on American history written by an American.
The rest of your question is mainly composed of baseless ridicule and I see no reason to respond to it. The only thing I found truly impressive about your question here is how someone of your apparent mental capacity was even able to construct a coherent sentence at all.
Nah. Stylometry indicates that The Book of Mormon had at least three principal authors, and none of them was Joseph Smith, Jr.. The only explanation for it that satisfies all the evidence is the book's own explanation of itself. Normal, human men wrote it -- as prophets and inspired historians, mostly, though there are a few secular contributions here and there.
Where did you find the information the they had seen them in visions? Actually, the eleven people who saw the golden plates never denied seeing the plates even though some of them ended up leaving the church. Even when Martin Harries, one of the original 3 witnesses, was gotten so drunk by his friends that he didn't recognise his neighbour, still didn't say he made it up Check it out, those same people who said to had seen them in visions all signed the following statement:
"Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it."
It doesn't sound like you are actually going in this unbiased, which is unfortunate. Try reading the Book of Mormon for yourself and see what is in there. My guess is that you will be surprised.
The gold plates were described as having the appearance of gold, they weren't necessarily made out of gold, possibly some type of alloy. The gold plates were also not a solid block of gold, in fact the pages were estimated to be about 0.02 inches thick, and were said to be "pliable like thick paper" A number of people lifted the gold plates to estimate the weight, most estimates were between 30 - 60 lbs