Can the man made doctrine of "once saved, always saved" stand against the Old Testament?

The prophet Ezekiel said "And if the virtuous man turns from the path of virtue to do evil, the same kind of abominable things that the wicked man does, can he do this and still live? None of his virtuous deeds shall be remembered, because he has broken faith and committed sin; because of this, he shall die. (Ez 18: 24)"

Jesus agrees with this when He said that "those who persevere to the end shall be saved (Matt 24:13)"

2011-03-18T07:07:03Z

For XY, there are things that we can do that are a sign that we have turned completely away from God. Catholics call this a "mortal sin" John refers to it as a sin that leads to death.

Consider the coldness of a person's heart in the following two situations:

1. If a petition to hire a female lifeguard for a swimming class is successful, the salary for that lifeguard would come out of a budget that would allow me to take a business trip to China. Because I want to go to China, I encourage a talk show host to speak against the petition.

2. Same situation, but I also spread rumors and personally incite hatred against the group that wants the female lifeguard.

3. Same situation, but I cut the brake lines on the car of the person who is heading the petition drive, resulting in her death.

All three of these involve sin, but the hatred in my heart increases and turns me further away from God.

2011-03-18T07:09:26Z

Yes, Mona Lisa, it is called the "No True Scotsman" fallacy and shows why "once saved, always saved" is contrary to Christianity.

2011-03-18T07:11:37Z

Yesmar,

Yes, salvation is by the grace of God. God does not withdraw that grace when we sin. We reject and throw away the gift of salvation when we sin as Ezekiel describes.

2011-03-18T07:20:44Z

Amy,

Foreknowledge and predestination are not the same thing. Yes, being omniscient, God knows who will remain faithful and be saved and who will lose faith and not be saved, but God created each and every person with the intent that everyone be saved.

James O2011-03-18T06:54:12Z

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Not the OT nor the NT

OSAS is spiritually and morally dangerous by encouraging people not to repent of mortal sins or to have real conversion to Christ

Amy2011-03-18T07:12:52Z

The doctrine of Salvation deliberately rejects the Old Testament. Paul writes that no one can live entirely without sin, and so no one who lived by the OT could earn eternal life. Salvation is a gift of mercy, ie forgiveness for those sins.

"Once saved, always saved" refers to predestination. God knows who he will save, and those people do not break faith and choose to sin.

XY GTHO2011-03-18T06:53:46Z

Sounds good.

Given that, can you tell me when I have lost my salvation?

I don't want nebulous terms such as "backsliding" or "falling away". I want specifics.

Look at the following questions and answer them in the vein of when my salvation would be revoked.

What act?

What act committed how many times?

What * omission * of what act?

What thought?

You fill in these blanks and I'll start considering something other than OSAS.

Until then, all you've proposed is a shaky precipice upon which to build and grow my faith.

Don't just give me a TD and huffily walk away. Tell me.

Anonymous2011-03-18T06:59:46Z

The entire concept of Christianity requires "once saved, always saved," because only an INSANE person would turn away from God once God has been revealed to them. I don't mean that as an insult, I mean it as an obvious, logical truism. How could one possible, willingly, choose eternal damnation after experiencing the full glory that is faith in the one true God? No amount of arrogance or any other human flaw could bridge that chasm. No person could possibly be unrepentant for their sins after knowing God.

Of course, that is one of the most basic fallacies and contradictions of the faith, and is an unavoidable result of nonsensical beliefs in make-believe omnipotent deities.

yesmar2011-03-18T06:57:50Z

There is some merit to the "once saved, always saved" proposition. The problem with your theory against it is that salvation is based on grace, which is a New Testament idea, and can not be substantiated or torn down by Old Testament scriptures.

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