Tony C Q: Jews and atheists: Jesus prophecies part 2 (details)?

Problem:

If he truly is the King of King and Lord of Lords, then by very nature of being King of Heaven, he is also the King of the Universe, and thus the King of Judah.

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If he sits on the Heavenly throne, and not David's throne, then he is not HaMosiach, seeing as Mosiach sits on David's throne.

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Mosaich -- Annointed One

HaMosiach -- THE Annointed One (to distinguish from the other Mosiach).

What Christians call 'The Messiah' is the Promised Messiah, or HaMosiach.

HaMosiach must pass through all that any of the other Mosiach pass through, including annointing with the Royal Oils.

Would you kindly show in the NT where Yshua bar-Ysef was annointed with them?

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Let me start with this:

You DO realize there are many, many messiahs in the Bible, correct?

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You're right. The NT has no verse stating that Jesus was annointed with the royal oils.

Thus, he did NOT pass through all that a Mosiach must pass through, and therefore is ineligable to be HaMosiach.

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Your verses claim he was annointed with the Spirit.

That is not a requirement for being a Mosiach. Being annointed with the Royal Oils is. And you've admitted that Jesus was not annointed with the Oils.

Thus, Jesus fails the test.

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Either he was annointed with the oils, or he fails to be Mosiach, and thus fails to be HaMosiach.

The Promised Messiah must be a Messiah.

To be a Messiah, one must be annointed with the Royal Oils.

A = Promised Messiah

B = A Messiah

C = Annointed with Royal Oils

A ⇒ B. (Given)

B ⇒ C. (Given)

∴A ⇒ C. (Transitive)

¬ C. (Given)

∴¬ A. (Modus Tollens).

I've even formulated it in straight forward logic, no ambiguity. ;)

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At no point does God change his mind and claim he will institute a new covenant.

If you look at the verses where Christians claim he will, in every single circumstance, he is speaking of renewing the Eternal Covenant.

What is Eternal cannot pass away (by definition of 'eternal').

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Your reformulation fails in that you change the definition of messiah.

Literally -- it calls God a liar.

Further, your logic boils down to:

A ⇒ B.

B.

∴A.

This is incorrect and does not hold.

For the symbols, I copy & paste from this site: http://www.zipcon.net/~swhite/docs/math/math.html

Jesus was not the messiah because:

1) He didn't bring world peace; hatred, intolerance, and war will cease to exist (Isaiah 2:4); clearly, there is no world peace. This forum alone is enough to demonstrate that there is no tolerance.

2) Predatory beasts will no longer seek prey, and agriculture will bring forth supernatural abundance (11:6 - 11:9); clearly, animals still seek prey.

3) ALL of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to Israel, and the law of the Jubilee will be re-instated. (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). Clearly, all Jews are NOT in Israel.

4) The Messiah will be a great political leader, descended from the house of David. (Jeremiah 23:5) Jesus was never a political leader of any sort. He was only descended from David through a valid line on his mother's side, but the mother does not determine house affiliation; the father does. If Jesus was Joseph's son, then he was of the discredited line you mention. If he was God's son, as Christians claim, he HAD no house, as God has no house.

5) The Messiah will be a great spiritual leader, well-versed in Judaism, and observant of ALL its commandments. (Isaiah 11:2-5). Jesus went so far as to declare at least one commandment regarding divorce as null and void.

6) Sacrifices will be made in the temple; these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings, as there will be no further need for expiatory offerings. (Zephaniah 3:13) As the temple at present is destroyed, this is clearly not occurring.

If he failed to meet even ONE of the prophecies, he is not the Messiah; Jesus failed to meet MANY, and as far as we Jews are concerned, was just a nice, young Jewish guy (and not a "rabbi") who tried to teach Judaism 101 to the masses.

"Links to another website will not be taken" Why would you expect anyone else to follow your links? We "dummies" will trust in our own research, thank you. You know, the kind done by real scholars, not some bible thumper with an agenda. ADDENDUM As I said, a bible thumper with an agenda. Yes, the gospel was written before Acts. No, it was not written before 70AD. Just because your opinion happens to place dates of 58 and 61 does not mean they are true. As stated by another poster, I can give you many sources, including Christian ones, that place the completion of BOTH works in the 80-85AD time frame, well after your so-called prophecy. Get over it. No amount of sarcasm will prove your bogus position. And yes. I went to Jerusalem and read all the original manuscripts, then I destroyed them. That's why there are no original manuscripts of any of the books of the Bible extant today. I got them all! Bwaaaahahahahah! Of course, the hard part was locating theses particular books, first, so I could bring them to Jerusalem, since they were, as I am sure you know (Ahem!), written outside Palestine. Enjoy your delusion.

Anyone NOT trying to turn the sentence inside out to justify their JC-savior argument would read 'none of your offspring will prosper', as a complete thought that stands on it's own. There is a comma after it, indicating it is a separate phrase from any that follow.

Besides, I saw a response from a Jew that listed several other political reasons why JC didn't meet the requirements of Messiah. Mostly, b/c he was not a political leader and he did not bring Peace to Israel.

It's pretty clear unless more twisting and taking words/phrases 'out of context' is involved.

So if you don't want to hear from Incarnatrix, I assume you are not interested in any non-Biblical comments. Then you shouldn't have put "and atheists" on your question. Very few of us use anything Jewish to defend our unbelief.

Ah, yes. Using the Bible to prove fulfillment of Biblical (and Judaic) prophecy. Completely unverified, of course.

And you wonder why no one accepts that answer...

umm...why did you include atheists in this question?

Nothing in your book can be rationalized with me. The bible also says that god created us from dust.

Uh-yes. That is exactly why I don't accept your christ as a deity.

You caught me. Now I believe.

Seriously?

Interesting, thank you

Elaborating? Enjoy! John

DOCTRINE OF THE ROYALTY OF JESUS CHRIST

A. Definition.

1. The adjective royal means kingly, pertaining to a crown. It's used

to describe a king as the sovereign ruler of people.

2. The noun royalty connotes the regal quality or nature of a king.

3. The connotation is portrayed in both the original languages of the

Bible. The Hebrew word used is MELEK; the Greek word is BASILEUS. Both

words are used in connection with our Lord Jesus Christ and in other

relationships.

4. The Bible not only recognizes the legitimacy of various concepts

and categories of royalty, but favors it.

5. Our Lord Jesus Christ now possesses three categories of royalty.

a. By virtue of His eternal and infinite being as God, He wears

the diadem of the royalty of His deity.

b. The royalty of His true humanity, by virtue of the virgin

birth, Incarnation and First Advent.

c. The royalty of His Hypostatic Union, by virtue of His

strategic victory of the first Advent.

B. The Divine Royalty of Christ.

1. His divine royalty is based on the fact He is eternal and infinite

God, possessing all the attributes of divine essence. This is Christ's

eternal and infinite relationship with the Godhead. Jesus Christ is eternal

God. He has all the attributes of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.

He is coequal and coeternal with them. As the manifest person of the

Trinity, our Lord wears the crown of divine royalty, Jn 1:18, 6:46

2. 1 Tim 6:16 1 Jn 4:12. The title for His divine royal patent is Son

of God. This royalty has no beginning and no end. All Bible doctrine comes

from His divine royalty.

C. The Jewish Royalty of Christ, the Royalty of His Humanity.

1. The royal title of our Lord's humanity is Son of Man. The Jewish

royal title of our Lord is Son of David. The virgin birth introduces the

humanity of Christ to the world. The royal patent of our Lord's humanity is

the virgin birth, resulting in His humanity.

2. At the point of His virgin birth, our Lord Jesus Christ became

Jewish royalty as a direct descendant of King David in the tribe of Judah,

the family of Jesse. Mary is descendant from their son Nathan. Joseph is

descendant from their son Solomon, Joseph being Jesus' legal but not real

father. Mary's line from Nathan is recorded in Lk 3:31; Joseph's line comes

down from Solomon through Jeconiah (who is also called Coniah--see the

Coniah curse in Jer 22:24-30, and Jehoiachin, 2 Kg 24:6ff; Jer 52:31ff) and

is recorded in Mt 1:11. The Coniah curse is that the Messianic line would

at some point be cut off and not be descended from Solomon's line. This

curse was fulfilled at the point of the virgin pregnancy of Mary.

3. As Jewish royalty, our Lord fulfilled the Davidic covenant. In

resurrection body in Hypostatic Union, Jesus Christ will reign forever as

the Son of David. Mary became pregnant because God the Holy Spirit provided

the necessary chromosomes for her pregnancy.

4. Our Lord's promise of the Davidic covenant is found in Ps 89:33-37,

"But I will not break off My lovingkindness from him, Nor deal falsely in My

faithfulness. My covenant I will not violate, Nor will I alter the

utterance of My lips. Once I have sworn by My holiness; I will not lie to

David. His descendants shall endure forever And his throne as the sun

before Me. It shall be established forever like the moon, And the witness

in the sky is faithful. Selah." Cf. 2 Chr 21:7, "Yet the Lord was not

willing to destroy the house of David because of the covenant which He had

made with David, and since He had promised to give a lamp to him and his

sons forever." Acts 13:22b-23, "I have found David, the son of Jesse, a man

after My own heart who will do My will." We fail God, but the integrity of

God never fails us. "From the descendants of this man, on the basis of the

promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus." This is the

fulfillment of the royal law.

D. The Hypostatic Union Royalty of Jesus Christ.

1. Our Lord's hypostatic union royalty is based upon His strategic

victory during the first Advent, when He defeated Satan during His thirty-

three years of executing the prototype spiritual life for the Church Age.

2. By living in the prototype divine dynasphere, our Lord was

qualified by impeccability to go to the cross and be judged for our sins.

That judgment is the beginning of the strategic victory of our Lord. It was

followed by His resurrection, ascension and session at the right hand of the

Father. The cross was the greatest battlefield in history!

3. This royalty makes Jesus Christ the ruler of elect angels and

regenerate mankind, Col 2:14 Heb 2:14.

4. The hypostatic union royalty was given to our Lord Jesus Christ as

a verbal commission, Ps 110:1,4, "The Lord [God the Father] says to my Lord

[the Lord Jesus Christ]: "Sit down at My right hand Until I make Your

enemies a footstool for Your feet. ...The Lord has made a solemn promise and

will not change His mind, `You are a priest forever according to the order

of Melchizedek.'" There is a complete break with Israel in this royal

family. Jesus Christ is a king-priest. The royal priesthood is formed in

the dispensation of the Church Age and every Church Age believer is a royal

priest, 1 Pet 2:5,9; Rev 1:6. This is a royal family born again into a

royal line. Our royalty does not come from physical birth because it

includes every race in the world, but from the new birth. You have the same

royal life to fulfill the royal law as our Lord Jesus Christ had on the

Cross to fulfill the royal law (Jam 2:8). The royal high priesthood of

Jesus Christ is confirmed in Heb 5:5-6; 6:19-20; 7:15-28.

E. The Titles of Our Lord's Royalty.

1. The divine title of royalty is "Son of God" (or Jehovah Elohim in

the Old Testament), Rom 1:4.

2. The Jewish title of royalty is "Son of David," Rom 1:3.

3. Our Lord has the royal title "Son of Man" because He made the

decision in eternity past as part of the divine decrees to come to the earth

and provide eternal salvation for the entire human race.

4. Hypostatic union royalty title: "King over kings, Lord over Lords;

the Bright Morning Star." "King over kings" gives Christ precedence over

human rulers; "Lord over lords" gives Christ precedence over angelic rulers,

Rev 17:14; 19:16; Rev 22:17.

5. The royal title "The Logos" is based on our Lord's decision to come

into the world and provide eternal salvation. This was an unknown title

until it was recorded in the word of God.

F. The Royal Families of Jesus Christ.

1. Divine royalty includes God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ always had this family in His divine royalty and always will.

2. Jewish royalty is the dynasty of David.

a. All His ancestors from David and Bathsheba down to his legal

father Joseph and His real mother Mary.

b. His stepbrothers: James, Joseph Jr., Simon, and Judas or

Jude.

c. His stepsisters: at least two, being also royal descendants.

Mt 13:55,56

3. Hypostatic union royalty is the royal family of God, every Church

Age believer. After His ascension and session, there was no royal family

for His third royalty. So the Age of Israel was brought to a screeching

halt, and the Church Age was inserted, the dispensation for the calling out

of the royal family of God. The Church Age is the mystery age, its

doctrines being previously unknown. Technical phrases are used to describe

the royal family: body of Christ, Church, bride of Christ, baptism of the

Holy Spirit, sanctification, and beloved brethren.

G. The Royalty of Christ Applied to His Name.

1. This is found in three words, KURIOS IESOUS CHRISTOS, meaning Lord

Jesus Christ.

2. "Lord" refers to His divine royalty.

3. "Jesus" means Savior, emphasizing the strategic victory of the

cross, resurrection, ascension and session, Heb 1.

4. "Christ" means anointed or commissioned one, emphasizing His Jewish

royalty. Its Hebrew equivalent is Messiah and refers to His Jewish royalty.

H. The Royalty of Jesus Christ at the Second Advent.

1. Each part of our Lord's royalty performs a specific function at the

Second Advent.

2. The divine royalty of Christ changes creation for the millennium,

judges ecumenical religion and removes it, destroys the armies of the world,

removes all unbelievers under the baptism of fire, and establishes perfect

environment for the millennium. In His divine royalty, Jesus Christ

controls history. Therefore, Jesus Christ judges the world both on the

battlefields of Armageddon and in the baptism of fire to surviving

unbelievers. Jesus Christ also establishes the Millennium and its 1000

years of perfect environment as the last dispensation of history, a parallel

to the first dispensation of perfection.

3. The Jewish royalty regathers Israel, terminates the fifth cycle of

discipline, establishes Israel as the last client nation to God in history,

fulfills the unconditional covenants to Israel, and causes Israel to become

a great source of blessing during the millennium.

4. Hypostatic union royalty makes Christ the strategic victor of the

angelic conflict and replaces Satan as the ruler of the world, imprisons

Satan for one thousand years, removes all demons from the world, and rules

the earth for one thousand years.

G. The Unknown Royal Title of Christ, Rev 19:12ff.

1. This is mentioned in Rev 19:12, "And His eyes [were] a flame of

fire, and on His head [are] many diadems; and He has a royal title which has

been written which no one understood except Himself."

a. The title has been revealed to the Church, but was unknown up

until the Church Age and it is still a prophetic title. Mt 11:27 is the key

to interpreting this verse, "All things have been handed over to Me by My

Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the

Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son determines to reveal

Himself."

b. The Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, has the right of determination

to reveal Himself. The Son has made the decision to reveal Himself in the

infallible word of God, which abides forever.

2. The Son has revealed Himself to His royal family, all Church Age

believers, in the next verse and gives us the name of this title. Rev

19:13, "He is clothed with a military robe splattered with blood, and His

royal title is designated The Logos of God."

a. The Lord Jesus Christ as a warrior is described in the

prophecy of Isa 59:17, "He put on righteousness like a breastplate and a

helmet of victory on His head; furthermore, He wore the uniform of justice,

and He wrapped around Himself a military cloak of zeal."

b. Rev 14:20 explains why this military cloak is splattered with

blood, "And the wine press was trampled outside the city, and the blood

flowed from the wine press up to the horses' bridles as far a one hundred

and eighty miles."

c. Isa 34:2, "For the Lord's wrath is against all the nations,

And His anger against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He

has given them over to slaughter. So their slain will be thrown out, And

their corpses will give off their stench, And the mountains will be drenched

with their blood."

d. Other passages describe the same annihilation of the enemy,

Joel 2:20; (In Ezek 38-39 the Hebrew word "Gog" in this passage refers to

the king of the North involved in the Armageddon campaign. In Rev 20:7-9,

the Greek word "Gog" refers to the end of the millennium.) Ezek 39:2-5,

"and I will turn you around, drive you on, take you up from the remotest

parts of the north and bring you against the mountains of Israel. I will

strike your bow from your left hand and smash down your arrows from your

right hand. You will fall in the mountains of Israel, you and all your

troops and the armies who are with you; I will give you as food to every

kind of predatory bird and beast of the field. You will fall on the open

field; for it is I who have spoken," declares the Lord God." Isa 63:1-3.

e. There are three explanations and great doctrines that come out

of the title "the Logos of God."

(1) The Logos of the Word, that is, Bible doctrine.

(2) The doctrine of verbal plenary inspiration.

(3) The doctrine of the Logos of God.

f. The unknown royal title (HO LOGOS TOU THEOU--"the Word of

God") has been written in the infallible word of God for every Church Age

believer as royal family of God to see and understand for himself. However,

it should be remembered that even the revelation of Bible doctrine is not

known to us as it is known to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Nevertheless, we can understand this unknown title through the study of the

divine essence of Jesus Christ. Our understanding of the unknown title of

royalty includes not only inculcation and cognition of the divine attributes

of Jesus Christ as God, but the human attributes of Jesus Christ in

hypostatic union. Our Lord's unknown title is not hidden, but deliberately

revealed in Scripture.

(1) "The Logos" is the royal title of eternity past in the

divine decrees, Jn 1:1-3, which is based on four decisions Jesus Christ

made. (See the doctrine of Logos.) This is the title of the decisions our

Lord made in eternity past to become our savior.

(a) Jesus Christ made the decision in eternity past to

provide unlimited atonement by becoming the only efficacious sacrifice in

human history, the basis for our salvation. This was one day's work in

eternity past.

(b) Jesus Christ made the decision to propitiate God

the Father through His perfect sacrifice of Himself being judged for our

sins. As a result of going to the Cross and being judged for the sins of

the world, God the Father is satisfied with the salvation work of Christ on

the Cross--propitiation. This eliminates all religions in human history as

being efficacious to God the Father.

(c) Jesus Christ made the decision to reconcile mankind

to God through faith alone in Himself. As a result of our Lord's work on

the Cross, mankind is reconciled to God.

(d) Jesus Christ made the decision to become the

mediator between God and man, and therefore, equal with both parties--God

and man. Therefore, Jesus Christ made the decision to become true humanity

to become our mediator.

(e) Jesus Christ made the decision to redeem mankind

from the slave market of sin. The result of Cross is also redemption, being

freed from slavery to the lusts and desires of the sin nature. Every

believer is born spiritually dead in the slave market of sin.

(2) Because of our Lord's victory on the Cross, one day's

work, God the Father added a second eternal title, "The Logos of the Cross,"

1 Cor 1:18, "For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are

perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

(3) At the second Advent there will again be one day's work

and another victory, and God the Father adds another title, "The Logos of

God."

(4) Each of these three royal warrants was awarded for one

day's work by our Lord.

3. Rev 19:14, "And the armies of heaven were following Him on white

horses, and they were clothed in fine linen, white and pure."

a. The armies of heaven which were following our Lord include

three army groups: all of the elect angels, all of the Church Age believers

in resurrection bodies, and all the Old Testament believers and

Tribulational martyrs.

b. Everyone followed Him willingly and was delighted to be there

with Him. This is the greatest march in all of history. All of these

armies come out of heaven. Each of these groups is made up of millions upon

millions of creatures.

c. Every creature who comes back with our Lord will be mounted on

white horses.

d. The fine linen is the eternal body.

4. Rev 19:15, "A sharp broadsword comes out from His mouth, in order

that with it He might strike the nations, and He will rule them with an iron

scepter, and prior to this He treads down the wine press of the wine of the

wrath of the anger of God, the Omnipotent One."

a. The armies that follow our Lord, both angelic and human,

follow the principle of Ex 14:13-14, "Stand still and watch the deliverance

of the Lord. The Lord will fight for you today." 1 Sam 17:47, "The battle

is the Lord's." 2 Chr 20:15, "The battle is not yours but God's."

b. Total annihilation of the enemy results in one thousand years

of world peace, the fulfillment of Ps 46:9, "He makes wars to cease to the

ends of the world. He breaks the bow and cuts the spear in two. He burns

the chariot with fire." Isa 2:4, "He will judge between the nations. He

will condemn many peoples. They will hammer their swords into plow shears

and their spears into pruning hooks. No nation will lift up a sword against

another nation, and they shall never learn war any more."

c. This is the fulfillment of the prophecy of Isa 9:6-7, "He will

be called Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty Hero, the Father of Eternity, the

Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or

of peace on the throne of David and over his kingdom to establish it and to

uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore. The

zeal of the Lord of the armies will accomplish this." The Lord Jesus Christ

will be the greatest Judge in the history of the world. He will also be the

greatest solider in all of history.

d. The end of this verse has a concatenation (to link together as

in a chain) of genitives. This is very dramatic. The violence of divine

integrity destroys the violence of evil.

5. Rev 19:16, "And He has a royal title written on His military cloak

and on His thigh, "KING OVER KINGS, AND LORD OVER LORDS."

a. Our Lord's royal title of the second Advent is worn in two

places--on His military cloak and on His thigh.

b. He has a new royal title--"King over kings, and Lord over

lords." This title is His authority for rulership of the world.

c. In the custom of the ancient world at the time of writing

titles were written in these two places. An example of this is Myron's name

engraved on the thigh of his famous statue, the Discus Thrower.

d. The subordinate genitive identifies what is subordinate or

under the dominion of what is called a "head noun." This is called a

lexeme--two words of the same vocabulary describing the same thing. We have

two lexemes at the end of this verse. We have the same noun used twice,

once in the nominative singular and once in the genitive plural. The noun

in the nominative singular is the head noun or supreme noun, superior to the

noun in the genitive. The subordinate genitives should be properly

translated "over kings" and "over lords."

(1) For example, Mt 9:34, "He casts out demons by the ruler

of demons." The phrase "by the ruler of demons" is the genitive of

subordination, but it is not a lexeme. 2 Cor 4:4 describes Satan as the

present ruler of the world as "the god of this world." The phrase "of this

world" is a subordinate genitive, but this is also not a lexeme.

(2) Who are the "kings" over whom our Lord is "King?"

Mature believers of the Church Age who will rule with Him.

(a) Rev 5:10, "And You have made them a kingdom of

priests to our God and they shall rule upon the earth."

(b) Rev 20:6, "Great happiness and privilege and holy

blessing to those who are part of the first resurrection. Over these the

second death [the last judgment] has no jurisdiction, and they will be

priests of God in Christ, and they will rule with Him for one thousand

years."

(c) Rev 2:26,28, "Furthermore, the winner, even the one

who keeps My accomplishments until the end, to him I will give authority

over the nations."

(d) Rom 5:17, "For if by the transgression of one,

death rules through that one, how much more those who in life received a

surplus of grace and the gift of righteousness shall rule through that One,

Jesus Christ."

(e) 1 Cor 4:8, "You already have all you could wish,

you have already become rich, you have become kings without us; oh that you

did in fact rule so that we might rule with you."

(f) 2 Tim 2:12, "If we endure, we shall also rule with

Him; If we refuse Him [reject Bible doctrine], He also will refuse us

[rewards for time and eternity]."

(3) Who are the "lords" over whom our Lord is "Lord?" Elect

angels.