How many litters a year are too many?

Fantastic question from a knowledgable breeder/dog fancier.

I tend to agree with you - and *if* I could deal with the work of raising that many pups in the manner I prefer to raise them, I too would be breeding far more than I do.

I will make one point though -- in one of my breeds I work with a group of people who partner with one central breeder to assist in maintaining the working show dogs we prefer. That one breeder does the majority of the breeding - the rest of us work as satellites to both assist in breeding/stock selection as well as maintaining access to a large enough gene pool of the BEST working dogs of the breed that this breed has in the country. Because we work together we produce on average 10-15 litters per year as a group... all with the lines and the working ability we prefer. We also include as sub-satellites pet owners who are willing to keep high quality dogs intact and available to the genepool. ~~ certainly this isn't an approach for most breeders, but it works well for us ~~ which reminds me, I should call our fearless leader and let her know we appreciate her.

Edit: Gotta say - I'm laughing at some of the answers here.

Good breeding of high quality dogs is an art form. To get that form of art down pat you either spend YEARS perfecting it one or two litters at a time OR you breed more litters and learn faster what combinations work. In my estimation it takes about 20 litters produced before any breeder has a real clue what they can produce on a multiple generation basis... 1 or 2 litters at a time means 15-20 years invested.... or cut to the chase and breed 8 litters in a year and have a better idea much faster.

As a breeder/exhibitor and owner of high quality working dogs *I* prefer to buy from and work hand in hand with someone who has indepth knowledge of their genepool -- and I prefer to have CURRENT info of what's going on at the generation *I* will be owning... which is simply NOT possible from someone who breeds one or two litters a year.

Now - what makes me really chuckle - it seems to me that some idiot people honestly believe that the quality of the pup goes down when the number of litters produced goes up... which is exactly the opposite of reality *IF* high quality stock is used to begin with.

Editx2 - FWIW - $1000 a pup is for a low end pet quality pup from show lines... I'm WELL beyond that... as is Curtis I'm certain.

Editx3 - I just realized I hadn't answered the question "How many litters a year are too many?"

Too many is when the dams and pups don't receive adequate care.

Too many is when high quality homes can't be found for all the pups.

Too many is when the $$ income from a less than stellar buyer is more important than the individual pup.

and

Too few is when the supply cannot meet the demand and people have to make do with lessor quality or backyard bred dogs.

~~~~~~

To my way of thinking ~ when a breeder of high quality dogs has a waiting list even after producing multiple litters a year there simply NOT ENOUGH high quality pups being produced. My first litter of Bernese I sold a pup to someone who had a $500 deposit for *TWO YEARS* on another breeder's waiting list. They gave up their deposit in order to finally get a pup. That is NOT ENOUGH pups being produced.

Edit: TJ you are NOT the average working/show breeder and you know it. Quite frankly, you belong to a generation that actually has some foundation in animal husbandry and long range breeding plans. I'd venture a guess that your future breeding plans spread out multiple generations...

the average show breeder (let alone just "breeder") thinks ahead one, maybe two generations. How many times have you heard "Well, we're looking for a stud" and they are talking about a litter they have planned in a few months?!

I'm evaluating breeding plans for my male Sam right now. I was offered several b*tches to lease when I'm ready - the evaluation comes in to what I'm planning to do at the 4th generation from this hypothetical breeding... and the way *I* breed that means about 10-15 years from now... but I need to know what else is planned for breeding in the group I work with so I have an idea what will be available at each generation.

Well quite apart from the fact you really should take a trip TODAY to your local Shelter to see exactly how many Staffie and Staffie-types there are in there without you adding to their number, whether directly or indirectly!!, if you hope to make money off your single b itch, my friend you are going to be sadly disappointed. Thank heavens you are in Australia, and not the UK (where perhaps the Shelter situation isn't as bad as it is here). 'Her litters apparently average 8 -9 puppies' How about 2 or 3 if that's all she has in any given litter, minus the stud fee, C.Section cost, feeding before and after whelping, and the puppy feeding and registering. Your time (off work?), heating, lighting and equipment. And that's not touching on 'living off your b itch'. Impeccable bloodlines? Yeah right. How about passing all the testing necessary (including the sire too). Even Champions don't always pass on their qualities. Side job? Go work yourself through the relevant qualifications you need, and get yourself a good job - leave breeding your b itch completely out of it. Good breeders do this for the satisfaction of giving something good back to their chosen breed - NOT to make a living from. Just DON'T DO IT. Please. Add - Another thought - you do realise that should it all go pear-shaped, and you end up needing a C.Section - that's going to be it for her, so one litter a year may not be remotely possible. The best laid plans which with any kind of breeding, can't always happen. Again, get some good qualification yourself, and a good normal job.

really depends on how many dogs you are talking about. Our females have no more than one litter a year. Right now we have 2 females of breeding age and one has whelped a litter this year, one hasn't. We have 3 young females that will be bred in about 2 yr.

We raise chihuahuas and I am talking about 3-6 pups a year, maybe more if one litter is large. Not a lot of pups. I have been involved with breeding since I was a young boy growing up on a farm when animal birth was just part of nature. we bred working herd dogs and guardian dogs, so I am not a breeder with just limited experience. I learned it growing up. had a few litters of working dogs over the years as an adult. Owned chihuahuas over 54 yr. know just about everything therre is to know about them. Been breeding them about 12 yr.

It is funny how certain people are allowed to breed 8 litters a year, and I get thumbs down for having 1-3 litters a year. i am not an inexperienced breeder. have more experience than most of the breeders on YA, about 50+ yr worth considering I was helping with reproduction on a farm as a young boy.

It may depend on what breed, how many dogs you have.. and like you said, the demand for what you have.

If you have working dogs with a strong drive, then its important to you to continue your strong bloodlines.. you also have a demand for dogs that are able to perform the task they are bred to do, so its not like you will be stuck with half your litters, or dumping them in the shelter when they dont sell.

If someone only has a handful of dogs, and breeds on occasion to produce show dogs, or just to breed for themselves, then there's no reason for them to have that many litters a year. If its a breed that there is little demand for, there also is no reason to breed until the breeder knows they have enough homes lined up.

When looking at the number of litters, you also have to consider how many females this breeder has, and where the pups are going.. are a good portion of them being sold as show/work potential.. or does the breeder seem to just be making more pets?

ADDED

Many litters a year certainly does raise a red flag, I will comment on that.

But I think it depends on your purpose for breeding so many. A puppy mill is meeting the "supply and demand" of pet puppies. There are facilities that have their own breeding programs to breed service dogs, some may easily have over 20 litters a year

It depends on your purpose, the number of females you have (obviously if you only have 4 females, there's no reason why you should have 8 litters a year).. and your means to properly care for these litters.

Any one with a clue would have to agree with you about 110%. In any breeding program be it dogs, horses or whatever there is simply no way to truly breed without actually breeding litters and retaining quality pups. There are not many "breeders" of anything around nowdays because it takesa goal for your bloodline, is a true commitment and takes a whole lot more thought, effort and intelligence than most people are able to give. I believe that the evidence of this is that we have almost entirely stopped creating new breeds with the exception of the kindof breeds that are 1/2 of one thing / 1/2 of another thing - not really a breed just a cross. .

If a person is breeding sh*t, even one litter in a lifetime is too many. If a breeder has multiple quality bitches, all proven & health-tested, has the facilities, takes excellent care of their dogs, socializes & starts training the pups and there is a demand for these pups, especially a working demand, breed as many litters as you feel you can handle. Curtis, lets face it, the kind of dogs you breed can't be acquired just any old where. I don't think a blanket statement saying 1-2 litters a year per breeder is always appropriate. Have to consider each case individually.

My problem with it is that there are people out there producing 6, 7, or 8 litters a year of "maltipoo" and "goldendoodle" mutts for nothing else than profit.

So yes, as a general rule (at least applying to most of the BYBs on Y!A who dont have the first clue about breeding, let alone a reputable bloodline) any more than two litters are year isnt healthy for the bi*ch.

If you are in a terrible hurry to strengthen your bloodline, I guess 8 litters is OK, but most of the better breeders of really top dogs don't seem to need to breed quite that frantically. If, as you say, you are breeding that often because you can sell the dogs and there is a big market for them that is not way of the reputable hobby breeder, but of a commercial breeder. Quite a different game.

Our blood line stretches back for almost half a century, and the most I have ever bred is two litters a year. Most of the time we only breed every two or three years. For a fact quality of a breeding beats the hell out of quantity of breedings.

See anything wrong with our breeding program?

5 pups in the litter 5 Champions in the litter

2008 Beagle National Specialty

http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp43/blunderpic...

edit

I guess Animal Artworks has forgotten how many Champions we have produced over the years.

"Too few is when the supply cannot meet the demand and people have to make do with lessor quality or backyard bred dogs."

This is where we differ, I breed to meet MY needs, I have no desire to be the worlds leading supplier of dogs.

edit

Curtis, yup just another crappy day in the show ring ;-)

http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp43/blunderpic...

"Form follows function"

Absolutely, and when the form isn't right the function suffers.

Both sides of that sword are just as sharp.

"Would you breed more dogs if people were hungry and needed rabbit dogs?"

Nope, like I said, I am not interested in supplying the world with dogs. And, there is no shortage of Beagles.

8 litters a year by how many b*tches? I am assuming you are breeding at least 6 to 8 females? When do you stop using your females for breeding?

Those are the only questions I have.

anything over 2 litters per *****.

That's how I always took it, I didn't realize they were doing it per a breeder. lol I just assumed any single ***** shouldn't be having more than 1 or two litters a yr.

Not a breeder though and I doubt I ever will be so *shrug*