wiccans and pagans: why do you assume that belief in jesus means acceptance of the entire new testament?

As someone that doesn't think there isn't any truth in the Bible or to be found in most religious teachings I would have to say that I don't really make that assumption of others. But to try to outline this correctly I think that the mere belief or veneration of Jesus does not necessarily imply being Christian or even Christo-Pagan. I think both of those terms do imply that the New Testament, and possibly other Christian but not Biblical texts are accepted. To believe in or worship Jesus usually but not always means complete acceptance of those texts; I think this is where the confusion comes in. I also think many Pagans look at Christo-Paganism as a form of a hybrid of both Christianity and whatever form of Paganism is being practiced, and not just the mere veneration or worship of Jesus as a deity (I can honestly say I've made that mistake in overlooking this minority). I look at what happened to create Christo-paganism as a historical hybridization of both kinds of belief structures.

The only reason I think this is strange and possibly disturbing is that in that same process much of the pre-Christian pagan traditions were either lost or modified beyond most recognition. Christianity and some forms of Paganism do have similar traits, and associations can be made. But what does that say for the preservation of any pre-Christian Pagan tradition, belief, or practice? (they have mostly been destroyed or lost.. as we know) I think the absolutist nature of Christianity and its propensity to 'inspire' people to dominate and evangelize is what is the most disturbing. I am not saying Christo-Pagans do this, but that it just seems to be the result of an obscure form of appropriation where Christianity borrowed from paganism, but not the other way around, which, I believe, is indicative of the nature of Christianity; it seems to consume and alter instead of having much originality. They are two very dissimilar belief structures; throughout history one seems to be consuming the other's practices while scapegoating its people. Does that sound like a reasonable explanation as to why this phenomenon occurs?

I agree with every word LabGrrl says about the incompatibility of Jesus's teachings and Wicca.

I just want to add that Christo-pagans are not the same as Christian-Wiccans. You seems to be addressing the two topics as identical. They are not. "Paganism" is not a religion. It's a very broad term encompassing many different religious paths. Wicca is a distinct religion.

I most commonly hear the term "Christo-pagan" used by Gnostics. They aren't claiming to be Wiccan.

"krishna also said 'no one my reach god except thru me' [i paraphrase]"

And this relates to Wicca how?

"original sin originated in indo-european religion"

Specifics please?

And how does this relate to Wiccans? (Or pagans who follow a religion other than whatever religion you're thinking of?)

"the jesus myth is the story of a pagan sun god-savior"

And how does this relate to Wicca? Wicca doesn't have a god-savior. (Neither do most pagans)

"the images christians use to this day originated in classical paganism"

And how does this relate to Wicca?

And since when was Christianity about images? Are you suggesting that two religions are compatible if they use similar pictures?

And for the record, Christians get images from a LOT of sources.

So many books left in so many books left out back then it was no different from now. Politics ruled, and if what ever was wrote could coincide with the polices of the day no matter where in the world that's what was done Why do certain folks always think they have the only true answer and path to follow on earth, when every culture had basically the same beliefs with only a different slant according to the part of the world they were a part of? Go into deep down discovered caves eons old that have the same drawings depicting the same ideas. What is the answer for that? Carvings, writings,Pictures,sculptor's,paintings any form of left over human history around the world have way to many similarities to be classified into any one religion other than the human being religion!

I don't believe that all Christians accept the entire Bible, or that all Christians believe the same way.

I don't even have a problem using Jesus as a deity or borrowing from the Christian pantheon. Just like I don't see anything wrong with Wiccans borrowing from the Norse or Hindu pantheon.

I don't think borrowing from one religion, or one religion's pantheon, however, makes one that religion. Calling on Kali as a Wiccan doesn't make you Hindu, just as calling on Jesus as a Wiccan doesn't make you Christian.

Some Pagan religions, particularly neo-Pagan, mesh fairly nicely with Wicca and can be practiced in harmony. But most of these were autonomous tribal religions which had very little dogma in the first place.

I don't see how one can marry two faiths, such as Christianity and Wicca, or Hinduism and Judaism, or Islam and Secular Humanism, etc., and try to unify them as one, when they have so many conflicts in fundamental theology. I don't see how one can adhere to both faithfully at the same time. If anything, it seems to me to become a new syncretic religion, rather than either of the original.

Hey Tim.

We don't. Being Wiccan or Pagan means understanding, willing and doing. It also means that we have to do more serious study than those in Christianity are required. Knowing that there are contradictions and critical flaws in the mish-mash of contradicting ideas and philosophies, leads one to Wicca more often than not.

The Wica do not follow blindly, but it is expected in Christianity.

Your friend needs to stop dipping her toes in the water and get in the pool all the way, or she needs to get out of the pool altogether. Only the individual knows if they are being called to the old path.

"Christo-Paganism" is nothing more than a way for Christians to try getting their feet wet without leaving their "safe harbor" of Christianity. If your friend is afraid of the Christian scorn of becoming Pagan, then perhaps this path is not for her. We take action and do. We do not ask permission from the Gods.

There is a falacy around the whole Christo-Pagan thing that needs to be addressed, honestly and directly.

If any of our gods wanted anyone to follow the old ways, then the pull that they feel would tell them that they belong on that path, as it would apply to anyone on any path.

And if they do not recognize the pull, then they are either meant for another path, or are not yet ready to start this one.

Christo-Paganism is not a way towards following our path. It is filled with contradictions and false dichotomies; none of which work in the actual practice of Paganism or Witchcraft.

Pagan paths come with hard work, study with a good teacher and it requires effort; real effort, not dependence and hope that some deity will help us. They may or may not.

Paganism's core beliefs, which require independence, effort and real study of the natural world, is in direct opposition of Christianity's core beliefs, which requires it's people to surrender their individual will to a fictional God and a fictional, semi-deified "leader".

Most Wiccans and Pagans laugh at them (or feel pity for them) since they usually find themselves becoming part of the Correlian cult, "Witch School", or some other such fluffy nonsense instead of learning the reality of the Craft.

The Christian theological process is INCOMPATIBLE with Pagan beliefs. Pagans are followers of the natural cycles of the Earth, not the commandments of a deity. Christians comply with the commandments of a single God.

Pagans have no religious "leader", outside of the HP/HPS. These leaders are autonomous of any heirarchy or outside leadership. NO ONE gives us divinity because we are an experiential religion. We do not live our religion or advance "through" the existence of another. We practice and advance through our experiences and the knowledge that we develop in the natural world around us.

Pagans believe in what we can do, not what some deity is willing to do for us. Pagans do not believe in Christ, mostly because everything that is written about him is exclusively in the Bible (no where else - and the Romans were excellent record keepers), written more than 80 years after he supposedly died and his life is an exact copy of the mythos around much older (at least 3000 years) theologies involving Gilgamesh in Persia and Amun Ra of Ancient Egypt.

Yes, the images that Christians use are based in Pagan beliefs, but they are just propagandized images used to try to drive conversion to Christianity and demonize Pagan beliefs.

Pagans do not believe in either the Christian God or the Christian Devil.

To be a Christian is to believe, worship their deity and pray.

To be a Pagan or an initiated Witch is to know, will and do. Our deities give us the power to know and act. We do not need them to do our work. They do not need us to worship them, but to understand and respect the workings of the universe in which we live.

You know? That's a good question. In point of fact, the bible has only a limited relationship to Jesus, and the New testament is about 85% stuff made up (or writen, to be fair) about Jesus or about the end of times, or about how the new churches should behave, long after the death of Jesus (assuming such a fellow lived).

I have a very close friend who worships Jesus as her God and Mary as her Goddess, and blends the ideas presented as those of Jesus in the Gospels with Wiccan ideas very smoothly and comfortably.

She calls herself a Cathio-Wiccan for fun, but she is very much a Wiccan.

Again, excellent question!

Accepting the existnece of one god means you MUST accept all gods, as one answerer said? Really? Since when? Will your life end if you don't acknowledge some nameless god from the caveman days? I think not.

The simple answer is this - because they have not chosen to educate themselves in very many religions, and are stuck in the teachings of their youth when they were christians (or the faulty teachings of pagan/wiccan leaders) that there is one and only one way to be religiously, no matter how open minded they think they are.

Again, as i said in an earlier question - there is a lord and a lady in wicca - and most wiccans chose a diety from numerous pantheons that fits best for them. Yes, there is a lover aspect to wicca, but I know an HPS with the Morrigan and Dagda as her patron god and goddess - and some folks have told her she cannot have the Morrigan, because she is a goddess of war. Well, here's the facts - Morrigan is also the goddess of hearth and home, a dualist.

AND if you believe some of the writings on the subject, and follow that one path of thought that jesus did marry and have children like any good rabbi would, then clearly he could be a lover as well.

So basically, inflexibility and ignorance of other religious lines of belief lead them to say such things.

Tons of christians don't even hold to the whole bible as having value or meaning for them.

EDIT - to argue with Labgrrl a little, on an educated level because I respect her and her intelligence, I see a fault in your reasoning. Accepting and worshipping Jesus does NOT equal accepting the Christian doctrine of fault and unworthiness. Christianity was created AFTER Jesus died, and he was more than likely much different in his beliefs and practices than the bible tells us - as written by men who supposedly knew him, decades after his death. Personally, I can't hold with anything mysoginistic Paul has to say. From what very little we actually know of Jesus as a demi-diety,he preached love, acceptance, tolerance, and fairness. he was still, however, clearly a man as well as a god, as shown by his temper in the temple. If we base adding him to a personal pantheon on himself, and not the religion men built up around him, he is as acceptable and as compatible as any other god in any pantheon - and perhaps moreso.

I don't assume that at all.

Assuming Jesus was in fact a real person, he was a very good man, and I have actually recently been flipping through the Christian bible looking for what he taught. Jesus was kinda a hippy, he preached love above all else, and I respect that. His followers have turned it into something potentially ugly.

Hence, there's a difference between being a Christian and a follower of Christ.

Wow, you got a lot of very interesting answers here.

I just wanted to mention that I started off Wiccan but I am not anymore because I felt that my beliefs outgrew it. Although some of my spiritual foundation will always be Wiccan in nature, I find that holding the "title" Eclectic Witch is much more accurate.

I can see how someone can be Pagan, or Eclectic and include Jesus, Mother Mary, the Angels and the Saints in their spirituality but I do not see it being compatible with Wicca.

I remember when I started crossing the border from Wicca to a more eclectic form of Paganism. It didn't feel right to call myself Wiccan anymore when some of my beliefs came into conflict with some of the concepts of Wicca. I wasn't raised with religion and Wicca was the first spirituality I studied and practiced...so I really had no Christian based fear about following my own unique path...or any worries about the Gods being angry with me for striking out on my own.

Wicca is a fairly new religion and although it has it's roots in Paganism, it stands on it's own as a religion with certain guidelines.

I think that if one has beliefs that contradict with the teachings of Wicca, then they aren't Wiccan. They can hold on to the title for whatever reason but it doesn't mean that they are truly following the Wiccan path. Jesus does not fit in Wicca. It's the same thing as saying that your Christian/anything. It's an inaccurate label of one's beliefs. You are either fully Christian or you're not, you can't add Wicca to it. You can decide to change the meaning of both words for yourself and say that's why you are Christian Wiccan but both religions will still stand on their own and totally not meld with each other no matter what meaning you decide to attribute to it. Christian Mysticism is a closer and better definition but it still doesn't completely fit.

And if someone considers Jesus a myth and that he really never existed but is just a character from a story that mimics an older God...then why would they want to include him in their practice? Why wouldn't they just include the older God?

I can see someone seeing through the politics of Christianity, believing that Jesus really did exist but was most likely more Pagan than anything else and embracing him in that way...but still I don't feel that someone who did that should consider themselves Wiccan.

I feel that people are afraid to let go of labels, afraid to say that they don't fit into any particular mold. Not everyone does. Some of us continue seeking and changing and evolving for our entire lives and we go all across the board. Some people grow and evolve just as much in one spiritual belief system for their entire lives and that is fine with them. We are all different, I think the problem here is that some people are afraid to embrace what that really means and so they keep trying to find ways to hold on to certain labels.

I think the idea that Jesus was a son of the alleged 'one god', and he taught about 'sin' and 'salvation' and many other terms contrary to Wicca is the problem, not the New Testament itself.

I'd like to know what gods of any European polytheistic tradition contradict Wicca. Seriously. Give one.

What contradicts Wicca in Christianity is the idea that we are born flawed and must be corrected, and the idea that *anyone* other than ourselves can be held responsible for our personal shortcomings.

When a so-called Christo-Wiccan says they are, I ask them "What makes your beliefs Wiccan," and when they can't answer that, they are poseurs.

Edit: Respectfully, if one is to believe in Jesus, one should believe in the words attributed to him, as that is the only source in which he exists... I think the so-called 'red letters' make it clear that Jesus is the 'path' to 'his father,' and that he believes (at least within the narrative about himself) in an afterlife, and in a world to come, that are distinctly at odds with Wicca...Jesus's world is corrupt, and flawed, and evil. Our world is not...

But, again, I challenge Christo-Wiccans to name something about their path that makes it Wicca and they always fail.

Just as when someone comes out with a view of Thor, or Zeus, or The Morrigu, or Hecate, or Anubis, that is VASTLY different from their behavior in lore, we should treat the view that Jesus is vastly different from the story he comes from as UPG, and evaluate it as such. Just like with UPG, one of the first questions we should ask is: "does this view of Jesus as contrary to the story he comes from profit the one claiming it enough to wonder if the PROFIT is motivation for the claim," and I think it is. Ask a "Christo-Wiccan" what they gain by clinging to Christianity, and you'll see that, not personal revelations of any god, are the source of their "UPG."