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Did Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain face weak competition?
Two of the NBA's greatest players, Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain, are often criticized for playing in a "weak" era. This is far from the truth, as the 1960s were a very good time for basketball. A much smaller league meant more competition for fewer spots. The fact that only the 121 best basketball players in the world could play in the NBA condensed the talent pool to nine teams. In the modern NBA, over half of the teams don't even have one all star player, nevertheless hall of famers. Examining the teams in the mid 1960s, all nine of them had Hall of Fame talents:
Boston Celtics: Bill Russel, John Havlicek, Sam Jones, Tommy Heinsolm
Cincinnati Royals: Oscar Robertson, Jerry Lucas
Philadelphia 76ers: Hal Greer
New York Knicks: Willis Reed
San Francisco Warriors: Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond
St. Louis Hawks: Bob Pettit
Los Angeles Lakers: Jerry West, Elgin Baylor
Detroit Pistons: David Bing, Dave Debusschere
Baltimore Bullets: Walt Bellamy
Russel and Chamberlain faced various legends on a nightly basis, yet still were known as the best players of their generation. Throughout the decade, the two were subject to strong competition Some of the great players Russel and Chamberlain faced included:
1960-1964:
Dolph Schayes
Bob Pettit
Walt Bellamy
Jerry Lucas
1965-1968:
Willis Reed
Elvin Hayes
Wes Unseld
Nate Thurmond
1969-1972:
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Bob Lanier
Artis Gilmore
Billy Cunningham
Dave Cowens
One reason fans tend to lash out at these legends is the absurd stats of not only Russel and Chamberlain, but average players as well, as it was not uncommon for a player to average 15-20 rebounds per game. There are several reasons for the high rebound rates of these players:
a. A high tempo offense. The average team in 1965 shot about 600 more shots than a team in 1985 and about 1400 more shots than a team in 2005.
b. Less fouls called. In 1965, the average team had 2076 personal fouls per season. In 2005, 1856 personal fouls were called. But keep in mind that 1400 more shots were attempted, yet only 200 less fouls called. The result, a lowing field goal percentage, and more shots allowed to be rebounded.
When adjusting the field goal percentage to 45% and reducing the shots taken to the normal rate today, the rebounding rate drops to a more familiar rate for most players. Elgin Baylor would dropped to around 9 boards a game and Nate Thurmond to around 12. However, both Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain, even with the adjusted stats, still averaged between 16-20 rebounds per game, showing that they truly did dominate like few others.
Another common misperception is that Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain played against only 6'6" white centers. That is completely false. Here are the NBA players from 1960-1972 6'11" or taller who played at least 3 years in the NBA: (list does not include Wilt Chamberlain)
Kareem Abdul Jabbar: 7'2"
Dennis Awtrey: 6'11"
Walt Bellamy: 6'11"
Tom Boerwinkle: 7'0"
Nate Bowmen: 6'11"
Mel Counts: 7'0"
Walter Dukes: 7'0"
Jim Eakins: 6'11"
Ray Felix: 6'11"
Hank Finkel: 7'0"
Artis Gilmore: 7'2"
Swede Halbrook: 7'3"
Reggie Harding: 7'0"
Bob Lanier: 6'11"
Jim McDaniels: 6'11"
Otto Moore: 6'11"
Dave Newmark: 7'0"
Rich Niemann: 7'0"
Billy Paultz: 6'11"
Craig Raymond: 6'11"
Elmore Smith: 7'0"
Chuck Share: 6'11"
Ronald Taylor: 7'1"
Nate Thurmond: 6'11"
Walt Wesley: 6'11"
Two other factors to keep in mind:
a. The NBA was less interested in promoting itself 40 years ago, and therefore, did not see the need to measure players with their shoes on. Almost all players today are listed 1-2 inches taller than their actual height.
b. The NBA had 1/3 of the players that they do now. That means Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain faced these 25 guys 3 times more often than they would in the modern nba scheduling.
The truth is, height will never be more of a factor than skill. With several exceptions, players over 7' are typically not very successful. At a collegian level, only three 7 footers have made all-American first team in the last twenty years: Shaquille O'Neal, Andrew Bogut, and Chris Mihm. In this years all star game, Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, and Chris Kaman were the only three of 30 players selected to be 7 feet, and all are known far more for their skill sets than dominating with size. If height was such a significant factor, then Manute Bol, Shawn Bradly, and Gheorghe Muresan would be hall of fame players, not just fan favorite scrubs.
The overall talent of the 1960s is greatly underestimated as well. The stamina that players in the 1960s have is far greater than anything seen today
1965 Top 3 in minutes played per game
1. Oscar Robertson, 45.6 mpg
2. Bill Russel, 45.2 mpg
3. Wilt Chamberlain, 44.4 mpg
2005 Top 3 in minutes played per game
1. Lebron James, 42.3 mpg
2. Allen Iverson, 42.3 mpg
3. Gilbert Arenas 40.9 mpg
In addition, teams never walked up the court and held the ball for 12
seconds, and then have four players watch as the fifth tries to get to the hoop. Most teams in the 60s tried to get a fast break after every rebound and in the half court set, the ball moved and players were setting screens and cutting to the basket. Yet players were doing this on a nightly basis, without fancy trainers giving massages and various methods to help muscle recovery. In addition, players were far more versatile as Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Dave Debusschere, and other players could play 3 or 4 positions. Many performances that players had would be considered triple doubles in todays game, but assist rules were far stricter in the 1960s, as the average team in the 1960s made 1000 more field goals per year than a team in 2005, yet averaged 100 less assists.
The 1960s produced some of the leagues finest stars, and it is an absolute travesty that these legends are debunked for playing in a weak era when it is clearly not the case.
15 Answers
- Anonymous1 decade agoFavorite Answer
Well said, and this if for those of you who said that Hakeem Olajuwon is the greatest center of all time.
I've seen a number of fans make the claim that Olajuwon is the best center of all time. They're wrong, but quite a few people have said it.
It could be said that the best "teammate" Olajuwon had was Clyde Drexler, although he did play with Sampson during the best part of Sampson's career.
I would not consider the 90s to be the best era for big men... you basically had 4 or 5 HOF quality centers in the league in Shaq, Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson and possibly Zo. Maybe Mutombo if you want to go that far. But that was IT.
In the 70s, we had Jabbar, Walton when he was healthy, Cowens, Reed, Hayes, Unseld, Thurmond, Jerry Lucas, Wilt, Walt Bellamy, Bob Lanier, Moses Malone, Bob McAdoo, plus Artis Gilmore, Dan Issel and Mel Daniels from the ABA. Not all of those guys played throughout the 70s, but they were all there during that generation.
All of the NBA guys I named are Hall of Famers, Issel is a HOF as well, but Gilmore certainly should be in there too, and even Daniels has a decent argument, although I dont see him ever making it, unfortunately.
Olajuwon did destroy Ewing in the 94 finals, no question about that. And while Olajuwon's footwork was great, the "Dream Shake" is the 2nd most overplayed and overrated move in NBA history (the most overrated was Jordan switching hands on an uncontested layup in the '91 finals). Olajuwon's footwork developed while playing soccer as a child.
You've already made the point yourself that blocked shots were not an official NBA stat during the careers of Russell and Chamberlain, otherwise, they'd be 1 and 2 (or 2 and 1) in that category. While blocks were not an official stat, newspaper accounts of games involving Wilt and Russell would often mention how many shots they blocked... it was not unusual for them to block 6-8 shots in a typical game. I'm not saying that's what they averaged, I'm just mentioning that it was common for them to have numbers like that. Both players and referees confirmed those numbers in subsequent interviews over the years.
Heck, Wilt blocked 17 shots in his very first NBA game (oh and btw, he also chipped in with 43 points and 28 rebounds that night).
Blocks (and steals) were not officially kept by the NBA until the 1973-74 season (the season after Wilt retired), and the NBA does not recognize ANY blocked shots by Wilt or Russell (even though they're on film).
Olajuwon would be no better than 4th on the all time blocked shot list had the stat been kept by the NBA from day one. He might even be #5, I think Nate Thurmond probably would have blocked more shots in his prime than Olajuwon.
Both Russell and Wilt would also be high up on the steals list (for a center) had that been an official stat as well during their careers.
If Pete Newell says that Olajuwon has the best footwork he'd ever seen in a big man, I'll take his at his word. Newell's been a coach/scout/consultant for a long time, and he has indeed seen them all.
However, having the best footwork doesn't automatically make you the best player. Charles Barkley, for example, had terrible footwork, but he was still a heck of a player. I wouldn't be able to name too many forwards in NBA history who were better than he was.
Olajuwon had some weaknesses in his game that were not always easy for a casual fan to spot. His passing skills were never that great, and his in-depth knowledge of the game was lacking in some areas (he did not really play basketball at all until his late teens).
His remarkable athleticism made up for his relative lack of overall knowledge. He didnt always have a knowledge or feel for where every one of the other 9 guys were on the court.
When Olajuwon came into the league, for example, some teams used to try to play him physically by getting a strong player to lean on him. But that actually made Olajuwons job easier, because he could feel his man leaning on him and spin off of him (theres that great footwork again). However, Pat Riley discovered that if you play off of him in the post, then Olajuwon would have to physically turn in order to locate the defender (because he couldnt use the spin move). That gave a team time to double team him and take the ball out of his hands (and as a bonus, his poor passing skills could sometimes be exploited).
Thats just one example, but its something that not many people know about. All they ever talk about is the one move he made against David Robinson, and from that alone, they proclaim him as the best center ever.
Olajuwon did win 2 rings, but imho, probably would have only won 1 ring at most had Jordan not retired. Still, you play who you play, and its not his fault Jordan retired early. But Olajuwon did play great in both of those finals, and outplayed both Ewing and (a young, raw) Shaq. Still, although you say that Olajuwon didnt have any great teammates, neither did Ewing so it was one one-man team against another in 94. He deserved both rings that he won. And Im glad he won them. I always liked him and enjoyed watching him play.
In the 70s and 80s, you needed several HOF or HOF quality players in order to win a championship. The fact that Olajuwon was able to win 2 titles in the 1990s with those teammates says more about the overall weakness of the NBA and the fact that the talent was spread so thinly than it does about him being the greatest center of all time.
Btw, when Kareem was 39 years old (1986) and Olajuwon was about 23, Kareem was named first team all-NBA over Olajuwon. Kareem destroyed both Olajuwon and Sampson during those days. Dont get me wrong, Olajuwon was great even at that age, but the fact that Kareem was first team all-NBA at age 39 tells us all we need to know about who was better. You dont want to know what Kareem would have done to Olajuwon in his prime!
But Wilt, Russell and Kareem are (in some order) still the 3 best centers to ever play the game. Olajuwon is one of maybe 3 guys who have a legitimate claim to be #4 (along with Moses Malone and Shaq). Walton was actually a better player than Olajuwon as well, but we cant rate him over Hakeem because Waltons career was injury prone.
The 1990s saw a decline in the overall quality of centers. And again, dont get me wrong, its not the fault of Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson or Shaq as to when they were born. They came to the NBA when they did. But the 1990s NBA was becoming loaded down with too many guys who came right out of high school and werent ready for the NBA (other than their potential).
Source(s): As far as the NBA being tougher when Hakeem won his titles, it wasn't all that tough with Jordan out of the league. Are you even aware that blocks were not recorded by the NBA until 1974. Wilt retired in 1973, Russell in 1969. Steals were also not an official stat until 1974. Olajuwon's blocked shot totals would be dwarfed by Wilt and Russell had blocks been an official stat. Russell was the smartest player ever to play the game, by far. It would have taken him no time at all to solve Olajuwon. It wouldn't be long before Russell knew what Hakeem would do before Hakeem knew himself. There were some weaknesses in Olajuwon's post game which require sophisticated analysis. Pat Riley was the one who discovered them. Russell would have easily exploited them. And Olajuwon simply would never get a shot off against Wilt. Wilt was a 48 min/game man. He averaged 46 min/game over his career. He would have worn Olajuwon out easily simply with FAR superior strength and stamina (not to mention skill). You wanna talk about Olajuwon's passing? Wilt was the ONLY non-guard ever to lead the NBA in assists. Are you also aware that Kareem, at age 39, was first team all-NBA over Olajuwon in 1986? Kareem was kicking Olajuwon's a$$ all over the court even at that late age. Greater athletes? Yeah, we sent great athletes to the Olympics in 2004 and to the World Championships in 2006, and our great athletes got their freakin' heads handed to them by teams which play basketball exactly the way it was played when Russell and Chamberlain played the game. Our 2008 team had to play together during the off season for THREE YEARS just to figure out how to play on the same d**m team. Wilt and Russell never competed in an NBA full of high school players and one-and-done college players either. And the only players under 6 feet that played in the NBA all played while Olajuwon was playing, not while Wilt and Russell were playing. It was Olajuwon who benefited by playing in a league with a bunch of midgets. Muggsy Bogues FIVE FOOT THREE!!! There were almost no players under 6 foot when Wilt and Russell played, because a player that size would never be given a look. Sebastian Telfair? Please... When Wilt scored his 100 point game, the Knicks' center was 6'11... he was 2 inches shorter than Wilt. So if Olajuwon's a seven footer, what was his high game against a 6'10 guy? Russell was also (by FAR) the greatest clutch performer in NBA history... he was 10-0 in game sevens, and he also won his only game 5 of a best of 5 series, meaning he was 11-0 in winner-take-all games. And, in case you think he wasn't contributing much offensively on those championship teams, take a look at his game 7 performances: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=2453844&ty... Oh that's right, can't talk about rings... Any else ever score 30 and pull down 44 rebounds in the 7th game of the finals? Not bad for a guy who was a 15 ppg scorer during his career, eh? And as poor a FT shooter as Russell was, even THAT wasn't something he'd let defeat him. I believe he was 14-17 from the foul line in that game seven. Heck, Olajuwon missed more big free throws during his career than Russell did. As far as the Celtics being a team with lots of HOFers, Russell MADE HOFers out of many of those guys. Russell had the highest winning percentage, as a player, than any player in history. And the Celtics IMMEDIATELY collapsed the moment he retired, despite the presence of some HOFers. btw, Russell and Wilt would have had an absolute field day against a robot like Patrick Ewing. Of all the great centers in NBA history, Ewing would have been absolutely the easiest to guard. He was at the other end of the spectrum from Olajuwon in terms of moves. He had about one. NBA centers have been going downhill during the last 20 years. Which means that truly great players like Olajuwon, Shaq and Robinson played very few games against HOF quality centers. Wilt, in fact, played against more HOF centers than any player in history except Kareem. Olajuwon might face Ewing twice a year, Shaq twice a year, and David Robinson may 4x a year, if that... Wilt and Russell played against each other 142 times in ten seasons... Olajuwon didn't play 142 games in his career against a HOF center. Then there was Nate Thurmond. And Jerry Lucas. And Willis Reed. And Dave Cowens. And Walt Bellamy. And Bob Lanier. And Bob McAdoo. And Kareem (Wilt and Kareem played 27 games against each other in 3 years....they did not meet during the year Wilt was mostly out). How many games did Olajuwon have to play before he met a HOF center 27 times. Forget it. The level of competition at the center position particularly, has done nothing but gone downhill. The fact that Kwame Brown has been able to carve out a 10 year career in the NBA shows how weak the league is overall. The NBA has always had players who were very much below average, but they didn't used to last 9 years (as Brown has so far) Of course, I'm sure you've seen Olajuwon's move against David Robinson in the post. That's probably where your idea originated. Wilt would have destroyed Olajuwon statistically, and Russell would have beaten him every time. Every...time. This is not to say that Olajuwon wasn't an amazing player. He was one of my all time favorite players to watch. And what was REALLY amazing about him is that he started playing basketball so late (in his mid-teens). He grew up playing soccer, which accounts for his remarkable footwork. Anyway, its no crime to be the 4th best center in NBA history. Olajuwon was an awesome player to watch. - 1 decade ago
I just wanted to show you that article but it's good to see you got it haha
Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain didn't face anything easy.They went vs HOF big men,vs the greatest centers of all time.In their battles i'm refuring on Russell and Chamberlain it was 50-50.Chamberlain played so much better vs Russ in the regular season but Russell dominated Chamberlain in the playoffs so this why i think he got the better of Wilt.Chamberlain owned the league statisticly,the second best statistical player after Mr I can averge 5 years Triple Double in stats,in fact Wilt would have 100 triple doubles if the league counted block shots,5-6 quadruple doubles and few quintdoubles.He owned the records.On the other hand his best friend Russell would have finished with 40-50 triple doubles(points/rebounds/blocks),he would have finished #1 leader in blocked shots,BPG in the playoffs(he showed his better game there) etc.
This would be the stat sheed for Russell and Chamberlain if theit teams were in the 90's so called the 'greatest big men era of all time'(big BS).
Bill Russell 18 ppg,16 rpg,5 bpg
Wilt Chamberlain 33 ppg,17 rpg,4 bpg
playoffs
Bill Russell 22 ppg,22 rpg,6 bpg
Chamberlain 37 ppg,21 rpg,5 bpg
In fact if they played now they would have killed the league,so would MJ too because it's a heaven for dominating offensive player now...
I say MJ and Wilt would averge around 40 ppg in this time and that Russell would averge 7 bpg in the playoffs....in the 00's
@Mr Game 7:Good list but my list of top big men is Bill Russell #1,Shaquille O'Neal #2,Wilt Chamberlain #3
And there's no way Hakeem is better then anyone of these Russell,Shaq,Kareem and Wilt.
- Anonymous1 decade ago
Wilt and Russell faced each other 142 times during the 10 seasons in which they competed head-to-head. That's 14x per season. Then there was Nate Thurmond. Then Willis Reed. Then Walt Bellamy. Then Wes Unseld. Then Elvin Hayes. Then Jerry Lucas.
Heck, Wilt and Kareem faced each other 27x in only 3 full seasons of playing against each other (their careers overlapped by 4 seasons, but Wilt did not play against Kareem in 1970, when Wilt missed most of the season after tearing up his knee).
Shaq doesn't play 27 games against a HOF center over any 5 year period.
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- 5 years ago
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- Ron-DLv 61 decade ago
good referencing on that one
I dont think people mean that Wilt and Bill played in a weak league, but that they played in a less competitive league in terms of eras
a player who played in the 60s might not be as good in 2010s but to his era a player like Wilt was a god, player should only be compared to their respective eras becuase thats how much basketball they knew for the time, over the years the sport had developed but Wilt and Bill cant be blamed for that
- ?Lv 71 decade ago
All good points, but you left off their toughest competition. Wilt's toughest competition was Bill and Bill's toughest competition was Wilt. None of today's modern centers can compare. Bill and Wilt would eat them for breakfast.
- 1 decade ago
THANK YOU!, some of these idiots try to discredit chamberlin or russel because they dont know their damn history shows you how much respect or lack of they give to the history of basketball, btw look at david lee and chuck hayes they are 6'9 and 6'6 respectively and still better than the lakers beloved overrated center andrew bynum
- ItLv 61 decade ago
No they didn't face "weak" competition, thats just a myth ppl say in order to say MJ is the G.O.A.T.
good points though. People really need look up their basketball history.
