Why do so many people attribute *socializing and training* as the most important part of having a dog?

let me tell you a little story.

one of my favorite APBT's (the one that was killed by my ex husband during my divorce)

was purchased sight unseen. i had found her by calling the breeder- asking for a young dog or older pup, and had been directed to the owners- the breeder had told me "they want $100 for her, i think they just want to get rid of the dog." she was off the dam i liked, so i got the number and called them up. they told me a bit about her, but i wasn't prepared for what i found when i got there.

when i walked in, i found a brindle colored streak hurdling at me at about 100 mph. the house reeked of dog urine, and was just a wreck. after talking to the owners, i found out that the dog was 15 months old, had never set foot outside- not been for a walk, rolled in grass, NOTHING, had never met anyone but the girl and her boyfriend, never seen another dog before, never got housebroken, you get the gist.

so when this 55 lbs of muscle and sinew hit me in their front hallway, it proceeded to try to slobber me to death. her tail wagged so hard i had bruises on my shins. she was SO happy to see a person. i asked for her collar and leash so i could take her away, and they produced a puppy size harness. seriously? i got one from my car.

i never had to desensitize the bltch to anything, just let her check out new things, and then she was fine. i never regretted getting her- she was ROCK SOLID and took everything in stride. she had to learn a lot, but housebreaking was a breeze, she learned to go swimming, and loved walks, once she understood how to walk politely.

my only constant complaint with her was that she ALWAYS got car sick- no matter how i'd try, how often we'd take short rides, etc- she'd even throw up by the end of the driveway. no matter, she was wonderful other than that.

a poorly bred or weak nerved dog NEVER would have been like her. this dog had no fear aggression, wasn't timid, etc. she just wanted to check everything out, and make new friends.

genetics ALWAYS overrides training and socialization. i won't deny that they're important, but when it all comes down to it, i'd rather have a well bred dog with no training than a trained dog with questionable genetic!!!

1) Temperament is inherited, agreed. No argument whatsoever. Soundness in mind, of utmost importance too. Again, no argument.

2) The majority of people have dogs as pets. They are not going to be protection dogs, not herding dogs. They do not need to have tons or drive, nor nerves of steel. Most people could not deal with that type of dog. They haven't the experience, the time nor the desire. These majority of people haven't a clue about temperament, what to look for.

3) As Poppy said, once the puppies are born (breeder's responsibility) the buyer gets what it gets. The genetics are there and can not be changed.

4) Temperament. It is not always black or white, perfect or a disaster. Usually it somewhere in between...the gray areas. May have a degree of sound sensivity, over-reaction to movement, a wariness of strangers....often noticed when the pup is around 3 months old. If addressed immediately, no problem. If not, it becomes more "ingrained" and may become a huge problem...that can take a "good trainer" months and months of rehab.

5) So what the average person has in their toolbox is socialization and training.

6) A puppy needs experience: socialization to learn how to deal with life, and training to learn how to act properly.

7) One can have the most mentally sound dog (genetics), but if it hasn't been properly socialized and trained, and feels it must be in charge of other dogs, jumps out the car to go run and play with other dogs, drags its owner down the street, jumps on everyone, mouths and play nips people, runs out the door and down the street, doesn't come, doesn't stay, barks all day long at anything and everything, pees and poops in the house, tears up the furniture, gets on the kitchen table and eats the cake...etc.....might as well put a bullet in its head. If one won't or is incapable of training.

8) It is SO much easier to socialize and train a maleable pup "right" from the start, than wait until bad behaviors have been learned.

Re: your story above about the rescue Lab. But you TRAINED the dog.

Now, if you want a discussion about the responsibility of breeders......

I have to ask, based on your additional information, how do you know that it's genetics making the difference? You have one dog, with some serious fear issues that stay after being reduced with training, and say "it's bad genes". Another dog, completely shut down, who you get to recover, and say "it's good genes". But, do you know? What if those dogs' genes are 99.99999% identical? It seems to me that you are making an assumption that the answer is all genetic, when it may not have anything at all to do with genes. I could just as easily say that the Lab in your example had had more socialization when young than the GS did, and that's why the Lab turned out better. You can't prove either theory based on your examples. What has been shown, by some controlled studies, is that young animals deprived of nurturing (which is what I believe a lack of socialization is), grow up to be adults with issues. So even a genetically sound animal who is not well-socialized is going to be less than it could have been if it was well-socialized. It may be fine for most things, but it will probably never be as good as it could have been. But, at the end of the day, this is why there is the famous saying: "The plural of anecdote is not data!"

This (the old nature vs nurture issue) is an on-going debate in the sciences. Take a litter of purebred pups, with known parentage. According to you, all those dogs should be essentially the same genetically, and yet, you will still get dogs that are not sound in a litter with a bunch of sound ones. If genetics is the be-all end-all, that shouldn't happen. And yet it does. I guess you can say that the unsound pup just managed to get the bad genes that the parents had by the genetic lottery.

I agree that genetics is the foundation, but you can't say that genetics are the beginning & the end.

Feral dogs for example, if they would have started life in a loving home with proper training & socialization even if just to the family, would be total different dogs. You can't accurately say that they are all genetically skewed.

With my breed, socialization to people, places & things other than the family is crucial. Coddled, spoiled, ankle biting monsters are created otherwise.

In some instances genetics are so bad...that there is no hope...true, but I cannot deny the fact that environment does play a part as well as genetics.

ETA- Oh & basing off the question in the link provided, my opinion is, NO dog no matter the size, genetics, or environment...would ever be trusted 100% around children without supervision. Even if a dog is genetically skewed in the head or completely sound....it is still just a dog. The well-being of my child comes before any animal.

This is the most important thing for any social animal.

Imagine a person who was not trained and socialized. Early grasp and exposure to certain apsects of life can lead to poor mental development, as in the 'wild child' that was raised by wild animals, and even after years of being around people, never could grasp language, customs, social norms, etc.

Imagine never teaching a child to use the potty.

Read about Helen Keller before she was taught communication skills.

The opposite is true of an animal that is never taught or exposed to the things he naturally should be. Some CAN be taught to be socialy acceptable later in life, but some cannot. This is why many behavioural problems I see are in dogs separated too early from the litter, and/or poorly socialized. They did not or have not learned adaptive coping, or have 'learned to learn' operantly, or have learned to submit to leadership.

Edit: It is not nature vs. nurture, it is nature AND nurture, both will play an important role in the above skills I have mentioned. Although a dog from proven lines will be LESS LIKELY to show problems because of a poor or unstimulating environment, take ANY dog out of a litter early, and stick him in a kennel with no social outlet, and it will take FAR longer to teach him the basic things he will have picked up on his own as a young pup. Sorry Greek, but you are wrong. Train a few young pups early, and go back to them in a year and see that you will be able to advance MUCH faster because of the early exposure to training, no matter what advantage his genetics give him.

Genetics are certainly the most important when *acquiring* a dog.

However, very few people even know what to look at, or what to ask. Very few people have done any but the minimal research on the breed. Very few people realize the importance..and that is why BYBs and puppy mills thrive.

Most people acquire a dog because of its appearance, or its reaction to their presence.

I raise a very 'quirky' breed, that can be wonderful, or an airhead, or a monster.

Very few prospective buyers give a rat's behind when I am trying to tell them what they need to know about my lineage, or about the dogs on their pedigree, or even about the differences within a litter.. MOST, only want to know that they are going to be large and flashy.

I have had so many get angry when I refuse to sell them the big, strutting, flashy, dominant male, when they are better suited to the mellow fellow, who will be so much easier to live with..

That's why I have to screen so carefully, and 80% of prospects are eliminated..It even seems that it is getting harder and harder to find an intelligent and forward thinking person!.

Look at that Presa in the afore-mentioned question.

You KNOW that it was not a responsible or reputable breeder!

No one with anything but dollar signs in their eyes, would have sold that loaded gun to such a person (with a child!).

BUT..Now, he has already acquired a dog, as have most askers here.

There is nothing they can do about the genetics of the dog they acquired, whether is was from a shelter, or from a breeder.

They have the dog..

All that they can do, is make the best of it..Help the dog be all that it can be.

So, now, their priorities ARE *Training and socialization*.

Ok, i'm going to answer based on my limited experience, so i'll apologise in advance if you think i'm spewing a load of BS! This is what i think-

Genetics play a major part in a dogs life, it's IS what determines the dogs temperament and it determines how the dogs mind works (sound or unsound). I disagree that an unsound dog can't be trained. Having had BYB dogs throughout my life and experiencing only unsound dogs (with the exception of 1 or 2) i've never seen it's behaviours due to it being that way not controlled. For example, Tess, she is unsound..she is not sound in the head..and never will be. She was dog aggressive simply because of her temperament. She'll never be friendly with dogs, i would be delusional to think that she will be, but after a good 18 months of training i've been able to *control* that behaviour.

Tess is not cured of her aggression...of course she isn't and if she were to be shipped off to a different family the aggression would start again (not that that would happen). The reason i was able to control that behaviour was down to me knowing my dog..me knowing what triggered her and me accepting the fact that she is unsound. It was down to me knowing what she could handle and what she couldn't, how much she could be pushed and what would send us right back to the start, how far to go without breaking the *trust* she had in me. It wasn't a joyful ride, we had our fair share of rough patches through training and we "fell out" a few times but the first time she allowed a dog to walk past (although at a distance) without having to feel scared or feel she had to protect herself and having her just looking at the dog. No fear, no aggression, no lunging, no barking, just sitting. It was a happy moment, it was a proud moment and it was the moment that told me that i was doing something right.

I agree that a sound dog will always be a sound dog and an unsound dog will always be an unsound dog, but to put a dog to sleep (unless it is of an immediate danger to people regardless of training) due to a human act i don't find fair...i don't find it's right. Call me a bunny hugger but i'm not going to sit here and tell you and everyone else that every unsound dog should be killed purely because some idiot of a human decided to bring it into the world. I am in no way saying that every dog can be trained to be a perfectly behaved dog. Sometimes dogs can so f^cked up in the head that there is no way to train them out of their dangerous behaviours..there are some dogs that are just ticking time bombs BUT an unsound dog that has the capability to be trained can be.

Bottom line, genetics are genetics they cannot be cured or changed, but they can be controlled (not cured) with the right training and the right owner.

No, genetics is not a behaviour but genetics can cause certain "behaviours" (most commonly *aggressive* behaviours) down to the weak temperament of the dog. The weak temperament of the dog is down to it's GENES.

Sure genetics play a role in behavior. However genetics is the one thing that cannot be changed. Behavior can be changed through training and socialization. A generically noise sensitive dog will will always be frightened the sounds of thunder but he can be trained and socialized to deal with the event properly. I've seen some really freaky dogs do some really amazing things because their owner took the time to do some training and socialization. So genetics isn't the whole equation. Environment also needs to be considered. Training and socialization is a part of the dog's environment. The environment can be changed.

Most problem dogs I come across in shelters are simply untrained and poorly socialized.

Now if I came across more genetically unsound dogs my thoughts would be different, but at this time all I see are dogs that are products of lazy ignorant owners.

To clarify, genetics do play a large part of it, but so does training. Also, when someones having a minor issue that can be solved with desensitizing or w/e, what would you rather? Put the POS down it's unsound or here this is what you can do to solve it or get a trainer they can help you? I'm not going to advocate a dogs death over something that can be fixed. Most dogs are pets not working.

A lot of them are just parroting back what they have seen the more knowledgeable dog people say in situations where training and socilization was the issue. A lot of them are also parroting back what they have seen from the TV "trainers" where training and socialization are always the "cure" failing to realize the dogs that can't be "cured" are never shown on TV.

Alison: breed has nothing to do with it. Genetic instability has nothing to do with breed. You can have a genetically unstable dog of any breed. You are completely incorrect genetics is the most important factor. You can put a genetically unstable dog in a home with the best most experienced owner and its still going to be genetically unstable, there is no fixing genetic instability. You can put a genetically stable dog in the worst home and yes you can create a "bad dog" but take that stable dog out of that environment and put in in a good home and the overwhelming majority of the time that dog can be "fixed"

Launi....I agree that there are dogs that are so genetically skewed that there is no hope for them.

I agree that there are dogs that have the innate ability to recover from the worst possible treatment with a minimum of human effort.

But most dogs fall somewhere in between those two extremes. In my experience, most dogs can be brought around to the point where they can function successfully as pets with consistent training, even if they did not hit the genetic jackpot.

Plus, people are not the same, and everyone does not want the same dog. Most of us dont need a dog that can sniff out bombs. Most people are happy if the dog walks nicely on a leash, greets them at the door, and does not eat the furniture.

I just placed a dog that I swear was "moody" and sometimes nasty. I think she probably spent most of her time before I got her hanging out in the backyard, alone, bitterly complaining to herself.:o)

She took a LOT of effort, but she came around tremendously in the time I had her. It took a while to sink in, but she clearly learned that nasty behavior would only bring her misery, while proper behavior brings attention and treats. I think she will always be somewhat unpredictable, but she gets along famously with her new owner and her cats. Her new owner doesnt mind her "moods". She enjoys the crazy displays of affection that the dogs fear of separation creates (they irritated the heck out of me).

Likewise, my chi will never be "normal"....she is simply wound too tight. But with clear and consistent training, she is able to live in our household with a minumum of fuss. She created chaos in the household in which she grew up, because she was not disciplined.

So I dont see why recommending training and socializing would be a problem...thats how most people find out if their dog is genetically sound or not, after all. :o)