DS: Personal Protection Dogs biting in public?

@Man of Mystery - yes, criminals have their rights protected, the same as you. And yes, it can be frustrating, trust me, I know, but it is a little exaggerated to say that you would be the one charged while the intruder was given sympathy.

Just a look at the legalities here -

Under the Criminal Code of Canada, you are legally justified in using as much force that is reasonably necessary to stop the threat. If someone punches you in the face, and you hit them back, knocking them down, you are justified. If you continued to assault that person after they are no longer attacking you, you can find yourself in trouble. If someone is trespass on your property (ie, not in your house), no you can't shoot him. Protection of property alone does not constitute justify the use of a weapon, unlike some places in the US, case law has already dictated such. If he is threatening you with lethal force or grevious bodily harm, you can use lethal force. Unfortunately, sometimes, it is not crystal clear whether the use of force was justified. These cases typcially go before a Judge. So shooting someone in your home does not mean you will automatically be charged, but it also doesn't mean you won't be charged.

Being charged with a crime does not mean you are guilty in this country.

Self defense is a legal defense. Police investigate the crime and lay the charge, the Judge decides if the force was justified as self defense. Police do not determine guilt.

Here are the laws pertaining to self defence and weapons regarding your residence and some examples of situations where lethal force, including the use of guns and knives, were found to be justified in Canada

http://www.canadacarry.org/subdream/index.php?cate...

Now, as for the use of dogs, in Policing, K9s are considered intermediate weapons, that being one step down from lethal force. So any use of a Personal Protection dog would likely be considered along the same lines. Basically, they are a weapon capable of inflicting serious injury. So if you are to use one in self defence, serious injury must be justified.

As for dog bite laws in Canada, they are not covered under a Federal Code. Each province or municipality may have its own laws. Some provinces have no law regarding dogs bite, Ontario has strict laws regarding dog bites.

Dog owners are not always liable in every province. Ontario, the laws do tend to favor the victim. While Ontario does not have a specific section regarding trespassers, there is this

Section 2 of the DOA does assign liability to the dog owner for any bite, however the next few sections do give a little leeway for fault

" The liability of the owner does not depend upon knowledge of the propensity of the dog or fault or negligence on the part of the owner, but the court shall reduce the damages awarded in proportion to the degree, if any, to which the fault or negligence of the plaintiff caused or contributed to the damages"

"Where a person is on premises with the intention of committing, or in the commission of, a criminal act on the premises and incurs damage caused by being bitten or attacked by a dog, the owner is not liable under section 2 unless the keeping of the dog on the premises was unreasonable for the purpose of the protection of persons or property." R.S.O. 1990, c. D.16, s. 3 (2). "

The last part about being unreasonable for the purpose, a good lawyer would argue a well trained PPD isn't unreasonable, or vicious.

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/Ontario.htm

Here is some more of a breakdown of dog bite laws, how they differ and how it can affect the situation

http://www.animallaw.info/nonus/articles/ddcadange...

The US and Canada are very different in many ways. Using weapons and defense is one huge one. In Canada, unless the situation is extremely grave, ie a weapon is presented, the attacker is assaultive (and there is a good reason to believe they will get the better of you), or someone else is being threatened with grevious bodily harm or death, the use of a PPD in a public area would not be acceptable. There would likely be a huge liability attached to it.

In the house, I think it would be a different story. Of course, it all depends on the situation.

I can not find any case law whatsoever on the use of Personal Protection Dogs in Canada. Personally, outside of my house, I would be extremely cautious, esp. if I was in Ontario.

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So sorry to hear about your loss. I am sure you know you will never be able to duplicate Sammy. As the previous answerer suggested the place you purchased sammy would be a good start. Another suggestion is to take a look at a different breed. That way you won't place any undue pressure on a dog to be "exactly like" Sammy. If that is a possibility for you, you might take a look at Rhodesian Ridgebacks. These dogs are big, they are from the hound family and they are quite family oriented. They were bread to protect the home from lions. If you want to see a ridgeback in action, rent "A Far Off Place" The only caveat I would suggest is not to get a rhodesian if your kids are small and into throwing sticks. Rodesians will chase you around the yard, but they will never go after a stick because it just lies there. Second, there is no reason you can't train it yourself. you can rent DVDs from the library. The Dog Whisperer course would be excellent. Again, sorry for your loss. We lost our believed (Max)imum Velocity about 4 years ago and i still miss his big head resting on the counter! cez

Suggestion If you are thinking about a personal protection dog as a defensive option please find a reputable trainer that knows the difference between a personal protection dog and a guard dog or sport dog. the reputable trainer will also understand bite control commands. you can expect pay a hefty premium (maybe thousands of dollars ) for a properly trained personal protection dog. you may also have to go to the trainer to be introduced to the dog and for compatibility with the animal. Remember each animal is different and has it s own personality.

You are allowed to defend yourself with just enough force to stop the other person so if you had a PPT dog then you need to make sure it outs on command. You can't just let it maul someone.

My dog is not trained so if I was in a fight and my dog jumped in everything I am sure it would be fair game until I got control of the situation again I have to stop and stop the dog as soon as possible. Heck the right answer is to avoid the conflict at all cost if you show that you tried then I can't see any judge having a problem with it.

I am sure anyone can sue but winning is another thing as for you sky light robber was the knife setup as a booby trap?

How would the law determine if a dog was "defending it's owner" versus a dog that just acted aggressively towards an approaching stranger that may or may not have been acting aggressively?

How would the law define "personal protection dog" to begin with (IE: How would the law determine if a dog was a properly trained personal protection dog in the first place as opposed to a pet?)

Are we talking responsibly obtained and trained PP dogs here, or people with pets they claim can "protect them from bad guys"?

I can see all sides of the argument. Personally, if i where to have a PP dog then i would not "deploy" in public unless i was being murdered, and even then LAST resort (because what dog can honestly stand up to a gun!) Seriously. My life and my dog's life (meaning scrutiny from the public and potential Dangerous Dog title from the county) is not worth a wallet or shopping bag!

I would be more than content for this dog to protect me and my home on MY property (be it business or home). Though i would certainly feel safer having a PP trained dog on those late night walks simply because the sight of such a dog would likely make anyone think twice before approaching.

If i have a personal protection dog, i would have paid a lot of money for it to protect me in any and all circumstances.

Having one to protect me just while i am at home is pretty pointless when i could just use an alarm system and install locks[much cheaper]. I wouldn't have paid so much money for just a watch dog at my home since any old pound mutt can be a good watch dog.

I see one of the advantages of using a dog for protection is that it is like a security system wherever you go. If the dog is allowed to engage a threat on my property, what happens if i were attacked while walking the dog; could i really expect him to forget about any and all training in that circumstance, i doubt it.

As for the legal reprecussions, i would rather have a criminal conviction than end up possibly maimed or dead and in todays society a person could sue for a dog attack regardless of where it happened.

I would also rather my dog be hurt before i was... putting his life on the line to protect mine is part of his job description. If i chose to own a PP dog, then that dog being hurt or even dying is a possibility i would have to be 100% ok with before buying.

I have no idea what the laws here are, but if I had paid thousands of dollars for a PP dog, I would want it to protect me.

I would reserve it for my physical protection, rather than property protection, but my physical well-being is more important than any dog. In this day and age there is no guarantee that the robber will not shoot you after you hand over your money.

Of course, I do not own a PP dog, so my dogs expect me to do the protecting. :o)

What in the world brought this on? My gosh. If I were to see this happening? A person *deploying* a dog (trained in PP or not...what difference does it make?!) in public? I would be pulling something out of my purse to stop it & the object is NOT pepper spray.

There is absolutely NO viable reason to do this. You are robbed in a parking lot? The robber is running? You let your dog out? You be real dumb. First of all the animal could very well get hit by a vehicle. Then you risk the chance of someone getting in the way & being knocked on their buttocks......the word *SUE* is now up on a billboard.

Most people who own PP dogs are extremely well known & filthy rich. They have the dog(s) & high tech security systems along with human body guards. Now that I can see.

~Man approaches as you open the vehicle door. Man sticks something in your back. (Weapon? Tampon?) Then proceeds to take your purse/wallet. As said idiot is running away you DEPLOY the 250 pound, ripped to the bone, martial arts, kickboxing, knife throwing, ex Marine/Seal/Assassin

WOman to run down the jerk and beat the holly crap out of him. Whilst you are talking calmly to the local law enforcement.

*Yeah. Yep. She has him contained. Uh huh. No. No one was hurt. I'm fine. Oh, wait.....you better send an ambulance.....yes, definitely. I think he has some broken bones and make sure there is a plastic surgeon on staff at the hospital he goes to.......face not looking good. Nope. Uh huh. Okay. See ya in a few. Bye bye.*

Additional: Uh, the answer a person gave to Inga's question? His mother *half deployed* a dog......

Did she rise from the grave? Told me she was dead. Was this BEFORE she passed away? I hope so.....

And: I don't believe I said anything about pulling a firearm from my purse. THAT is extremely stupid. I am not THAT extremely stupid.

In Canada a PP dog can be destroyed if it bites a burglar standing over your firstborn in their own bedroom. That's how strange and obscure the law of the land is regarding these dogs.

Pretty much the same obscurity applies if I put a bullet into the S.O.B. while he is raping my wife in her own bed. The criminal gets the sympathy of the courts and I go to jail in his place.

That is why I do not own a firearm and my dog has been ingrained with a very powerful recall command.

Should people be allowed to deploy their PP dogs in a public setting? Say a public parking lot? ABSOLUTELY NOT ! !

Should PP dogs only be used on private property? Such as your home or workplace? ABSOLUTELY NOT ! !

If you were allowed to use your PP dog in public, would you or would you not? ABSOLUTELY NOT ! !

Criminals in CANADA have their rights so well protected that I would likely spend more time in jail than than the criminal if I let my dog bite him. And GOD HELP ME if I were to shoot him.