DS: Clicker Training - I really want to know?

Clickers are nothing new, in one form or another, they existed for many years, its how most marine animals are trained. I dont like them, never have...I use my voice to mark a behavior I want by saying, "yes" and then continuing on, but, that is not the problem here.

The problem here is that the people who use them, and most of them are doing it all wrong, do it because they falsely believe that you will not need to use compulsion, ever, in order to have a proofed dog. That is simply not the case of course. You can train a dog that has a HUGE food drive using a clicker, but, I have news for all these so called "positive only trainers"...unless you incorporate some form of compulsion, usually in the form of an E collar, in the end, if you expect a dog to respond based to a recall, for example, you are hallucinating, period.

There will always be something out there that will be more attractive to that dog then that piece of hotdog in your hand, I guarantee it.

When that happens, and your dog is about to get into it with a 300 pound bear or a 50K tractor trailer, you better hope that your proofing methods were based on REAL life distractions and done for more then just withholding that piece of chicken in your hand.

Regardless of what anyone ever tells you, dogs that work under correction, work much more reliably then a dog that works for food or a toy. Oh, before I forget, I could really care less if my dog runs back to me instead of that 8 lane highway and he is happy and wagging his tail in love with me, that is not my objective, my objective is to save his life and the several thousand dollars I have invested in him. Hope I helped.

It has been awhile since I have read anything on clickers.

I *think* the idea is that you have done so many repetitions of down, followed by a reward (ideally, I believe the food reward is phased out, so that the "click" is the reward), that when the command is given, the dog performs. Similarly to the fact that when you use corrections, once the behavior is learned, you don't need to always give corrections. It is also the same idea as when you use treats for postive reinforcement, even with corrections.

The click just tells the dog what they did was correct, helping the dog to learn what is asked. Training involves repeatedly performing the behavior to instill that behavior in them. You should get to a point where when the "down" command is given, the dog does it, with or without reward so the click is not always needed.

You shouldn't need the clicker all the time to have the dog listen to you.

And I do believe that there is an element of ignoring the bad behavior.

I want to stress, I am not a clicker user (I have seen demos in agility). I was just trying to answer the question based on what I know, but I certainly am no expert and defer to those with much more experience.

Clicker training has immense potential and it shouldn't be considered to be just a clicking sound and treat to which your dog obeys. NO. It is much more than that. Before using clicker training, the person who's going to use the method must be trained in how to administer this method. Clicking sound is needed only initially which needs to be coupled with verbal commands, once the dog get used to it, you don't need clicker at all. And also many people think that the dog responds to clicker becos it is associated with a treat, even that is a misconception. The treats should be well hidden in the trainer's pockets.

Clicker training is marker training. All the clicker is used for is to mark the correct behavior. You can use it to mark an incorrect behavior also. The NO!!! in your example was used as a marker word for a disobedient behavior. You don't have to use a "clicker" either. Horns, whistles, beeps, marker words, and other sounds are often used. It's all in how you train it. The clicker itself is just another often misused piece of training equipment. I often use a marker word because I can always take it with me. It does not train the dog for you. the trainer trains the dog. A clicker isn't going to train the dog to lie down with a click. The click is actually used as a reward.

Trainers that use clickers in training have as bad of reputation as trainers the use remote collars. It doesn't matter if the trainer is good or bad. The piece of equipment is often blamed and not the misuse of the equipment or the trainer himself

Micheal Ellis, Patty Ruzzo, and many other great trainers use marker words in place of clickers. However the concept is the same. Many trainers start out using a clicker and then move to a marker work. Using a clicker is a training concept. It really isn't a training method. The method that it sadly has been associated with is purely positive training. This is where no aversives are used in training.

the click doesnt mark the command. It marks the wanted behavior. Supposedly its faster then saying GOOD BOY..and signals a reward on its way.

that being said. I've tried clicker training. I can get it to work with chickens ( dont laugh its how the course was taught and I got that chicken to do amazing things like go thru a maze and pick a colored target).... there was no negative association for the bird other then not getting fed. Read diary of a chicken trainer.. its not me, but dam if that isnt what you go through http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/diar... and it sorta explains clicker training better then most things. the object is to ween the dog from both the clicker and the treats in the end.

however I can NOT get it to work with my doxie. She could care less about the click, the treat or anything else if her attention wanders even the smallest bit. I'm still trying it with her, figuring it could be another tool in my box of dog training tricks. I do use command enforcement with her for certain things. She MUST come when called. No hesitation, no delays. if she comes to the whistle I use fine, click and treat. If she doesn't then a long line reels her in, she sits and gets the click and treat.

Good question.

The clicker shapes marks behaviors, used for training. So you don't walk around with a clicker all the time ... you train what you want, and brush up on it if needed. Dogs that are clicker savvy learn behaviors fast.

The dog in question is on leash ... and admittedly, recalls amid distraction are the toughest and most important behavior for your dog to master. Their lives may depend on it.

I do believe in physical correction and compulsion, but not exclusively.

To train a dog to walk past distraction quietly, I use counter conditioning. When the dog looks at me, it gets a click and reward. When that behavior is reliable, the click goes away. Reward soon drops from 100% to variable, to maybe 10%. So the dog may not get any kind of praise or recognition at all for ignoring behavior (my blind clients don't know if there's a squirrel, so they can't correct). The dogs learned that in the presence of food, squirrels, cats, whatever their particular demon is, if they detect it, there is a CHANCE of getting food.

Just as physical corrections are never discontinued...you don't train and then stop 100%, but continue as needed, so are food rewards not discontinued 100%. Again, I speak from guidework.

In the 4 months we have to train a string, we cannot go purely positive. But the parts that are done that way really stick well, and that's the distraction part. It works so well that we use to train our dogs to keep people safe.

Karen Pryor's clickertraining.com has lots of info. Thanks for asking a question that is not a bashing one. CT really does work.

I agree with what you've said. Personally I think the whole "only positive reinforcement" is crap. Of course dogs need to be praised, but they also need corrections. If a dog doesn't know to listen to you without the use of a clicker than that can be a very bad thing. A clicker, like using treats all the time, is a crutch. I want my dog to listen to me because they have to and because they want to please me, not so they can get a treat or click. I have no problem with people using it, and recognize that it can be a useful tool in place of food. However, using ONLY a clicker and no corrections or other feedback I don't agree with at all.

I use string cheese and a choke chain/prong when I'm training.

The clicker ( or any marker) is merely a training TOOL, and not the alpha-omega of training. It helps a dog understand more quickly and clearly what behavior you want.

Once the dog understands what is expected of him, you don't need the marker. Then, you can use any compulsion you need ( depending on the dog) to enforce your commands.

This article, from a trainer of working dogs, will help you understand the principles.

http://leerburg.com/markers.htm

I don't use a clicker, as I am too uncoordinated, but use a vocal cue.( a cluck-cluck, as you would use to 'giddyup' a horse)

I also don't have a pocket full of treats, unless I am training a new behavior.

To make is simple. Clicker training shapes the behavior you want. BUT you still have to use some form of compulsion to proof the command. Problem is the bunny huggers think they can just clicker train and it ends there...see my dog sits!

I am new to marker training and love it. The rate the pups catch on is astronomical. However...you have to phase out the food/play reward and start to EXPECT the behavior. Takes a lot of timing and know how imho.

I've never had a dog, but I've grown up around them in my life and many of my friends have them.

One of my friends, Rosie, has two Springer Spaniels that she, herself, trains through clicker training, and finds it the best when training them in agility. She says that using a verbal command in agility distracts them, while a clicker lets them know they're done it correctly.

Like the others said, it has to be combined (usually) with a verbal command. You say sit, the dogs rear end hits the ground, you click the clicker, and then you praise - for example.

I actually love clickers, I find that today there's too many 'manly dominance' and strict learning ways. Sure you want to be 'pack leader' but don't you also want to be the dogs friend and guardian? I just love love love clicker training, and I highly recommend it.

Best of luck, you certainly don't have a clicker hater in me.