Horses that suck away from the contact.?

Question

What do you do when you have a horse that sucks away from the contact?

I'm currently working with a green mare (Started in December) and she's coming along amazingly well considering that. However, she has always sucked back. It's gotten better, don't get me wrong- You used to get on, think of touching the reins, and she'd curl like the posterchild (Posterpony?) for rolkur. Now she just goes behind the vertical- Still far from desirable. Right now it's mostly down to trying to coax her to reach down and out, which only works until you take some semblance of a contact again. I literally go on the lightest contact I've ever ridden a horse with- If I went any looser the rein would be slack. I've lunged her in the chambon a bit, but it's only helped so much. Part of the problem is that, left to her own devices, she likes to stand with her back hollow and neck up, so the muscles she needs to reach are tight and underdeveloped. She has a ton of movement from behind, but doesn't quite have the balance yet to do a very good stretchy-type circle without falling on the forehand, which is another problem.  We've also been working a lot on caveletti and hill work to try to strengthen both her hind end muscles (Which is an odd balance- She needs to come more underneath herself and she needs the muscling to do so, but left as-is she overstrides at the walk by 6 inches.) and to strengthen her abdominals, but she's coming off of a month off so it's a work in progress.
Pictures: http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/268029_1999107535495_1177726117_1898984_5240086_n.jpg
What happens if you put on any amount of contact (We were supposed to be pushing the hind end over for help with her depart- The crossover behind is about as dramatic as her angry ears) http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/268056_1999106815477_1177726117_1898980_6324788_n.jpg
And this is about as stretched down as we can get. http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/267495_1999114055658_1177726117_1899023_3538104_n.jpg

SO. What do you do when you have a horse that sucks away from the bit?

And I have her, literally, in the mildest bit we own. It's a D-ring 2-jointed with a bean in the middle. The two pieces that aren't the bean are slightly curved. We've tried rubber coated bits but they're either too thick for her mouth or they're a style she doesn't like.  And no, we haven't tried a bitless, just because 1) She's still a green horse liable to spook, rear, or buck, 2) We don't yet consider this a major problem, more like a stage/green horse thing, and 3) They aren't legal for competition.

charm · Accepted Answer

I think she appears to be a lovely mare, and while I can understand your concern about her overflexion, I don't really see it as a problem because:

1. She is naturally built to carry herself that way. It's easy for her to swan her neck, so it's not your riding causing the situation, it's just where she currently feels most comfortable. 

2. Just as I wouldn't see a horse nosing out as a big problem, I don't see a horse nosing in as a big problem-- you are staying focused on her topline, her driving and impulsion... all the issues that will help resolve her flexing verve over time. If she were really short stepping as she flexes I'd worry, but it's almost more like she's using that position to help her drive forward. Bit odd, but not a worry at this point. 

I would do a LOT of walking work. Really work to get her relaxing and reaching for the bit, even if you have to go unconventional and take hold of her face and pull her head around (gently!) toward one knee, then the other, always asking her to reach and stretch. Reward her with a release as soon as she settles or pushes on your hands at all. You are actually going to try to make her heavier in the face-- something that virtually no horse needs, but it will let her learn to trust your hands and use your hands to help herself balance. This is a good way to teach her to seek a small amount of contact, because she will learn that such contact will protect her from unexpected bumps or pops from the bit. She looks to me like she really thinks she is doing what you want, so at least she is willing-- you just need to teach her that leaning a bit on your hands and legs should be comforting, not something to shrink away from. 

Like I said, it's a rare problem, so enjoy it. Most riders spend all their time trying to lighten their horses' faces!

Lynn · Answer

Rubber bits are amazing! Also, even better, I think, than the Myler bits (many of which aren't legal) are the JP Korsteel bits (plus they are 1/2 the price). They make a beautiful double joint with a good curve. I would also try him in a fixed mouthpiece and see if he goes better. The best thing to do though is to ask your vet what his mouth is like. If he has a shallow pallet and thick bars, then he needs to be in a double joint but it can be thicker and that might be easier for him. If he has a really little tongue and thin bars though, an eggbutt mullen mouth would be more comfy for him. And if he has a mouth that has absolutely no room whatsoever, (most arabs/ arab crosses, and horses that are fussy in their mouth tend to fall into this category) then a double jointed baucher would probably be best. Personally, I feel that the baucher mouthpiece is generally more comfortable for the horse than the loose ring because the basic design makes it so no pressure is placed on the bars. No pressure is placed on the poll in the design either, which is a myth often associated with this bit (otherwise, it would not be on the list of legal bits).

Elise Fern · Answer

I don't ride dressage, but I've seen this happen in a few of my green jumpers.

You're doing the right thing when you try to give her her head and let her stretch down for given times.  To me, it seems like she's overreacting to the bit.  The problem with her not using her abdomen isn't helping the matter, but it's not making it worse either. 

I know you said you've used a rubber bit before.  The only rubber bit I've ever seen work is a Happy Mouth eggbutt - > http://www.doversaddlery.com/product.asp?pn=X1-010419&ids=317243237 .  I've seen these bits work wonders for horses like yours so if you haven't given this one a try, it might be worth it.

Next, I would try a hackamore.  I know you think because she's green she's more likely to take off or misbehave, but if you're riding a green horse it's something you can handle.  Try a hackamore.  If she still over reacts to the hand, then we can rule the bit out from being the problem.  She could very well just be one of those horses he carries their heads tight.

I have a ground pole exercise I would like to recommend for strengthening her belly muscles.  It's a bit hard to describe, so I'm going to draw a diagram for you (please forgive my awful attempts of 'art')
http://i54.tinypic.com/245x5yd.png
So, the big black lines are four poles laid out to be a cross or a plus sign.  Do a diagonal figure eight over the center of these poles following the red trail I've tried to draw.  This will teach her to strengthen her underbelly muscles.

Hope this helps you a bit!

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Horses that suck away from the contact.?

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