Should people not interested in the "way of life" aspects avoid traditional martial arts?

I agree with you 100%. How do you think Mcdojos and MMA got started. It's people who can not stick out the traditional stuff and want a quick fix. Mcdojos and MMA serves this type of people. Mcdojos are for people who want to feel good about themselves and want the ranks but don't want to or can not train that hard. MMA practitioners do train hard for the most part but are satisfied with just learning how to beat up someone, never mind the rest. You can teach someone just how to hit hard in a very short amount of time. It just serves a different clientele. That's why I am not overly upset about the Mcdojo and the MMA craze. I'd rather have someone join MMA and be happy with it than give me a hard time in class not following what is required. Such an individual can be really disruptive to those who try to pursue more. People in Mcdojo and MMA learn what they came for and it is worthwhile to them. For me it would not be and that's why I am in traditional martial arts. I like to explore beyond the superficial stuff. It simply fascinates me and makes it easier to understand what it is I am supposed to do. An MMA practitioner will never understand this let alone experience it.

I believe there's no "wrong" reason to take up martial arts, but some reasons are certainly better than others. And what you get out of martial arts, depends entirely on what you're willing to put into it. A person who's only ambition in life is to rise from a back wash gym, eventually given the once in a life time chance to make it big in the ring, like some sort of MMA version of Rocky, probably won't be putting in the same kind of training that a person who say, maybe begins because they wanted to improve their overall way of life. The prior scenario is about glory and personal gain, and the latter focuses on bettering themselves.

While certain aspects of their training might be similar, the MMA person is only putting in for one moment and once it's achieved, it's achieved. When the glory is over and they can no longer maintain that life, it's then a lifetime of looking back. Not to say that is a bad life, but it does have an ending and utilizes things that cannot possibly be maintained. The strength and endurance of youth.

The person looking for self improvement will likely be putting in a life time of study, as they will continue to gain new perspective and look towards achieving a new ideal version of themselves. There will never be a "good ol' days" as there won't be an end to what they're doing. They might become old, but one who is focused on self improvement would only look to find ways of turning such a disadvantage into an advantage.

And what's more, short sightedness often times leads to selfishness. And visa versa. While life time endeavors, tend to open a person to compassion and patience. And visa versa.

I also have to toss in with you here. Classical martial art is not for everyone. For example, many of my friends through the years would go off to the bar to have a "few drinks, and some fun". I had no fun at the bar. I would go with Sempai to the dojo, and we would beat each others ribs black and blue, then do kata until we could hardly walk. That was fun! Most people, and indeed many of my students didn't think so. But the ones who did learned. And it is just as well, those who seek and find the "quick fix" do great in sports, and often are able to defend. Not to the degree of a classical martial artist, but adequate for most situations. All "arts" and "sports" should have some element of control, and indeed the MMA guys I worked with and around did. But we "lifestyle" folks are just a bit different than the norm.

I'm just adding my two cents.

It doesn't matter to me if they study it or not. I know they are wasting their time. In a sense like pugspaw said they are wasting my time too. But many don't know or won't know that it is not for them until they have at least tried it. I've seen some that I think will stick with it and they don't. I've seen others that I know won't last very long, but they are still around.

Myself for an example. My goal when I began wasn't a lifestyle. I had no idea of what that meant. I wanted to learn to fight like Bruce Lee. I was going to do 5 back flips and do a flying side kick into somebody's head and land on their chest, twist my body and crush their throat. But I started in judo and had no idea what judo was or how it was different than karate or what Bruce Lee was doing. I didn't know what he was doing was just for the movies. I was young. But I enjoyed what I was doing and wanted to learn more. My instructor also happened to be my World's Culture teacher. He taught me about the culture of my art too in school. From that day on I wanted to visit Japan. He showed slides of Japan. China, and Thailand when he visited them. He even got a forbidden picture inside of one of the Temple where the monks still consider sacred. He got caught but they were just were polite to him and allowed him to leave without making a fuss. As I matured my goals changed from wanting to know how o fight. I no longer wanted to harm anyone. My desire now is not to fight. When I was young I thought the reason for learning martial arts was so that you could fight. I was so wrong.

We live in a society where the majority want a quick fix. They want everything in the microwave, convenient, easy, drive thru, and instant. They don't place any value on thing worth having takes time, but are well worth the weight. It is their lost, not mines.

It would be wise for such people to avoid studying traditional martial arts, mostly because they would not get much out of them. That being said, those likely to get into the martial arts for the wrong reasons are rarely those willing to hear the voice of reason, and so such people will continue to study even so.

There seems to be a fail safe in martial arts. Only one of a refined moral character can progress. When the mind is unrefined, it does not matter how many times a technique is practiced. The deepest secrets of the way will not manifest itself to those lacking in character. Through the path of martial valor, one can become an excellent fighter, but if one unwilling to train in all aspects of this path, the mind will not be refined enough to use these techniques with mastery. Such a man will forever remain a mediocre martial artist, always striving to gain physical technique but never mentally strong enough to use them.

That being said, there is the rare exception during which one of a flamboyant and week nature is saved by taking on the path of marital valor. One must remember that those inclined towards this path are a hard headed and suborn bunch. Such a person is difficult to teach, but, having decided to learn, they will never quit. Many other arts can be acquired in a proficient manner in a relativity short time. Such arts attract men who are intelligent and quick to learn, but also quick to chose that art. Such students are easy to teach, however, the art is simple and incomplete, nothing more than a piece of a greater art. Martial arts takes a man who is as an oxen. Though slow, he will move a thousand miles without stopping. Men of such patience are rare, but such men can take on the finest of arts and learn the finest of skills.

This is why it has been said that of all the paths in life, the fewest number of men are inclined towards the path of martial valor. Any path may lead to enlightenment, but this path is a famously viticulture and rewarding one. If one does not fully peruse it, he will reap few benefits.

The picture that comes to mind is of a gardener planting a single oak and a single bamboo. Withing three months the bamboo will have reached its full height, where as the oak will be but a sport. In three years, the bamboo will be fully matured, the oak will be a twig. However, hundreds of years after the bamboo has faded away, the oak will stand tall. Having matured, the oak is thousands of times taller than the bamboo, even the branches that break off in a great wind are larger than the bamboo. Greater skills take greater time to mature. When one takes on the path of martial valor without dedication, it is like planting an oak with intent to dig it up in three years. Doing so has minimal benefit, one will have spent three years to acquire a twig, but how can a fool be convinced not to do so?

You have a good question. And yes those people would be bored and wasting their time and their instructors time doing traditional martial arts. Traditional martial arts have never been about a quick fix. but mixed martial arts do seem to be. It has no way of life or moral teaching in it for the most part. Although there are many fine people in mixed martial arts, there are also many with attitudes that would not be tolerated in a traditional dojo. I'm not down on MMA or mixed martial arts. I just see them as missing the point or long term analysis and improvement of individual techniques. i see them as impatience rather than looking towards greater improvement and mastery while at the same time seeing that the martial arts and life are about the trip. not getting to the destination as fast as possible.

Just my opinion.

Been there seen that, often done that too....

Learned that the quick method is not always the best or most satisfying.

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No not really in jeet kune do we learn from any good fighter just as like in history great fighters taught each other even in karate's history I believe there was a ryu kyuan who fought a Chinese man who they thought was invading their island and after long drawn out combat they quit fighting and started to learn from each other.

Many people just want to learn stuff like I have learned from a few karateka, jujutsuka & wing chunners to name a few and one of the wing chunners had over 8 years experience in the art and I learned much about fighting from him and I had been training longer than he had at the time but maybe because my style originaly came from wing chun which is a traditional martial art but with without bruce le called "the classical mess."

Traditional martial arts teach great techniques for real fighting so should not be over looked if that is what you are looking.

Isn't this what is happening with every aspect of our culture - shallow, cartoonish versions of great teachings or great art? We are taught to get rich quick or learn to fight quick or become a rock star even if you can't sing or play an instrument well.

Sure, there are people with enough adrenaline and tolerance for pain who can do a lot of damage to the average person. There have always been people like that and the traditional martial arts are designed to give the student an advantage over them. But, just like being able to really sing well, it takes a lot of training. In the case of TMA it requires a great transformation of the individual, including way of life issues.

That includes the skill of not getting into fights but also being skilled enough to prevail over the "tough guys with the muscles and techniques". It requires a great training of the mind to be able to use your power efficiently and neutralize the opponent's power. It requires being able to use each muscle and joint of the body individually and precisely to counter the opponent's size and strength.

Many of the martial arts schools seem to be geared to people who want to feel good about themselves that they actually learned something and got a belt but don't really want to put in the inner work. That inner work is a lot harder than the hardest physical work and takes a tougher person to do it.

I agree....This however is a sad topic....real cultural arts are being dominated by non traditional arts that teach nothing but tag.

I do not think there is a way of life but an activity outside traditional arts.

Most people now are too lazy and ignorant to see the real culture behind the art and are only interested on flashy things that do not work.

It is not that Traditional arts are not worth their time people get bored doing basics over and over..People are lazy and want to be pros in a week movies do not help either.They do not understand that good things are hard to get and that they take time.....

They want a meaningless belt without the hard work....go to wall mart they sell them in all colors.

A BELT IS NOTHING IF IT HAS NO MEANING BEHIND IT......OSU

I think they can learn something even if they are not interested in TMA but it of course depends on them as well as the way that it might be presented to them. First of all they have to be open to some extent to receiving things and I work with fighters all the time that really have no interest in TMA otherwise. I find that the way I present some of these aspects to them is also equally important in them listening and getting something from what I am saying.

I was just working with a young fighter who has had four fights in the cage now and he was doing some Muay Thai pad drills. One of the other coaches, who is not a great communicator, was extolling the young fighter to throw things harder; (he was getting sloppy with his execution and lazy because he was getting tired). Between rounds during the rest period I took the young fighter aside and explained to him that he had to focus and concentrate better on his execution so that he could and would still throw things with good speed and power and that being tired physically was no excuse for not still trying to do things well-especially mentally.

Allowing himself to become sloppy and dropping his hands when kicking, falling off balance because he was tired and not focusing on how well he continued to do things in spite of being tired would get him hurt or knocked out maybe. Doing this in drills like this could also develop a bad habit that might surface when actually fighting as well. He immediately grasped the importance of this and the next two rounds he did beautifully, throwing things sharply with speed and power and without any sloppiness in spite of tiring even more.

We as traditional martial artists learn such things and apply them in our training and studying of martial arts all the time. That is one of the ways you reach your fullest potential and develop your skills, knowledge, and technique to a high level in TMA. So TMA holds some good parallels that can be applied in a lot of different sports and endeavors in many ways-not just in TMA. I don't think people have to be involved or enamored in TMA to derive some benefit from some of these aspects. Instead they only have to take in those aspects and apply and use them to benefit themselves in their own way.