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Arguments against the existence of God?
What are some arguments against the existence of the God of classical theism aside from the problem of evil/suffering?
I want arguments against the existence of God. Saying there is no evidence for God, if that's true, at best leaves us with God possibly existing without our knowledge.
@Thomas L
I didn't make any claims. I asked a question. Theists have to support the claim that God exists, but atheists have to support the claim that God does not exist. The only person who escapes the burden of proof is the one who takes no position.
@lukas
You're incorrect. Anyone who says that God does not exist is making a positive claim to know something, so they bear the burden of proof for their position. As I said the only way to escape proving your position is to not take a stance. There are three positions here: God does not exist; Disbelief; God exists. Only in the middle is there no claim made, so only in the middle is there no need for justification.
@Everyone
There seems to be confusion here. I gave my definition for God when I said "of classical theism". Let me list the properties since I guess people can't look that up.
Transcendence - space-less, time-less, non-physical
Omnipotence - can do anything it is logically possible to do and is consistent with God's moral nature
Omniscience - knows everything it is logically possible to know
Omnipresence - at all physical locations at all times
Absolute Benevolence - the locus of all morality
@Beard
I don't accept the recent redefinition of atheism as a-theism. The historical definition is athe-ism. Atheism is the antithesis to theism, thus if theism is "belief in God", atheism is "belief in no God". Simple nonbelief doesn't need a fancy term, but if it had one it would be atheismism (no belief in God). The question posed is obviously directed at those who claim that God does not exist.
@lukas again
Whether your claim is positive or negative makes no difference. If the theist makes the positive claim that God exists, he makes a knowledge claim which requires evidence. However the theist could also make the logically equivalent negative claim "God does not not exist". This does not take away his burden of proof. In the same manner, atheism makes a positive claim to know something (which happens to be a negative), thus it requires evidence.
@lukas again again
On Russel's teapot: We have evidence that no such teapot has been launched by any space agency. We also have not spotted it by any satellite, nor any other detection method available to us. If one was there, we should have spotted it by now. Therefore we are justified in the conclusion that no such teapot exists.
@lukas again again again
No, the lack of evidence is only evidence for a negative IF we should expect to see more evidence and we don't. For example if I make the negative claim that there is no silver on Mars, that does not mean there is no silver on Mars. However if I sent a probe which scanned the entire planet's contents and found no silver, I am then justified in making the claim based on the positive evidence that no such thing exists. Otherwise the lack of evidence just pushes you toward not making a statement at all, but remaining neutral.
@lukas a fifth time
You missed the point of the teapot explanation. If such a teapot exists, we should have more evidence of it than we do. In this case, and in this case only, does lack of evidence for it count against it. For example there is good evidence that there is no planet between Earth and Mars because we don't see any gravitational pulls, magnetic interference, etc, nor have we observed such a planet. This leads us to believe that there is no planet there. It's a very specific and very exhaustive case.
@lukas number six
I completely agree with your methodology. If it is shown that the concept of God, so defined, is logically inconsistent, that is evidence against God. Further if we SHOULD see more evidence for God than we do, that is also evidence against God (though this is extremely sketchy if not properly laid out as to why we should see more).
You and Beard I think are the only two to present actual arguments. If you're interested, email me at nik@lupirapaces.co.cc later; you seem to be able to think critically.
@lukas seven
With all due respect to Russel, I think the teapot example isn't logically sound. We know what to expect if such a teapot exists, but making a comparison between God and a teapot is a bit silly given their completely different properties.
@lukas eight
That's just the genetic fallacy. Whether or not I would have believed in the teapot 2000 years ago does not affect the truth of there being a teapot or not. Similarly no matter what social issues go on regarding God, none of them have any influence on the reality of God existing or not. On the other hand 2000 years ago there was no such thing as a teapot (as we think of one today). The parody just gets worse and worse as you examine it.
@lukas eight addendum
Sorry not believed 2000 years ago, but believed in something 2000 years old* Also I have not given my personal beliefs at all here. Why do you presume to know that I believe in God?
17 Answers
- Anonymous9 years agoFavorite Answer
I see you talk about a god in general: omniscience is would go against the laws of physics, since quantum mechanics prevent you from knowing everything. Omnipotence is just as impossible since it means breaking the laws of physics, once again: impossible.
to all those people who say atheists don't believe something they can't see: We believe something that is based on empirical evidence. We believe oxygen exists because we can see how it reacts to its environment (for example: breathing).
a lack of belief in god is evidence because of the burden of proof. Saying that a lack of evidence doesn't mean that thing doesn't exist would mean that you can start believing almost everything.
@Nik well actually the burden of proof lays upon the person making a positive claim, in this case the theist.
@Nik we are making a claim, but this is a negative claim. The theists make the positive claim that a god exists and he must give the evidence: see Russell's teapot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_teapot
@Nik you appear to not have read my link. the lack of evidence for the positive claim is evidence for the negative claim. The theist could not make a negative claim again since there is now evidence for the negative claim.
@Nik same thing can be used against a deity. notice how you use the lack of evidence for the teapot as evidence against its existence.
@Nik good, let's use that example and take god the same way. Someone makes the claim that a god exists (following your form of classical theism). I look for evidence for this god and find none. Also, i determine that the form he is in (omnipotence, omniscience, source of morals) is impossible or just not true. Thus i determine that he does not exist. If later evidence is discovered that he does exist (he could for example show up and demonstrate how he is omnipotent) I will adjust my opinion about him. This is known as the scientific method.
@Nik with all respect but i think you are missing the point of the teapot example. Just like a god, Russel stated that the teapot cannot be observed, but that still is not a reason to believe in him.
@Nik this is another thing Russel himself mentioned. You see the teapot as a different thing because you have been raised in an environment where it is normal that people believe in a god. If the belief in the teapot had existed for 2000 years, you wouldn't think they are different.
@Nik sorry if i gave you the feeling to judge your beliefs, i merely addressed my answer to you. also i did not give the genetic fallacy above as evidence against a god. I used it to demonstrate the non-difference between a god and an invisible teapot.
- Anonymous9 years ago
There is no such thing as any god. How could this so called god create the world in seven days when in reality it took millions of years. How could more than 8 billion people come from two people "god" created, wouldn't they be inbreed. Life on Earth is a coincidence and nothing else. We ended up on this planet because we were an ideal distance from the sun, not too hot and not too cold. Then water came to Earth by comets which also brought many building blocks for life to start like carbon. The the simplest forms of life appeared the gradually evolved over millions of years. Then our ancestors evolved into what we are today. If there was a "god" how could you prove it, because jesus said so. Yeah right. People always tell me how can you prove there isn't a god. If there is no physical proof there is a god then how could he exist. Someone created religion to try to keep people at peace. That didn't work so well. Most wars start because of religion. 9/11, that was because of some religious nut jobs thought their "gods" will reward them for killing innocent Americans. In the end people believe in religion because they want to make themselves feel good about themselves. Or people pray to god most of the time if their in a lot of trouble.
- ?Lv 79 years ago
Classical theism? Like Greek and Roman Gods?
You can't disprove any God because you can't prove a negative.
If something doesn't exist, it doesn't leave evidence of it's non-existance.
All you can point to is a lack of evidence *for* existance. So far, there's no objective evidence (that can be measured, observed, repeated, etc.).
Subjective evidence-- how you feel, where you believe God intervened in your life, how becoming a believer changed your life, etc.-- is not objective evidence; it's subjective. Which means it is real to you, and affects your life as though it were real, but may or may not be objectively real. For example, kids who believe in the boogyman and are sure the boogyman is under the bed at night waiting to eat them, making the hair on their neck stand up-- that's subjective; not objective.
- ?Lv 79 years ago
No conclusive evidence that follows the scientific method
EDIT: God seems to be able to defy the laws of physics, which is, according to our current, well established knowledge, impossible. A creationist may answer that God is outside the universe. Also impossible and illogical. In addition, there is no explanation for how God was created. Christians say something like, God is eternal and created himself or something. Once again, highly illogical and impossible
Also, think of ancient religions of the Egyptians and the Greeks. They had their Gods, but today nobody believes in them or follows the religions. Eventually Christianity will go the same way, for the same reasons
- Anonymous9 years ago
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” ~ Epicurus.
So far still hasn't been refuted after like 2300 years.
Or just go with the basic, zero evidence for any god ever claimed to exist. There isn't any reason to believe in something so "big" with any credible evidence to back it up. It isn't possible to give you evidence against the existence of something as you can't prove a negative. That same rule applies for Unicorns, fairies, ect. Sure we can claim they don't exist but we still can't prove they don't.
"atheists have to support the claim that God does not exist"
Actually we don't seeing as the only thing atheists share in common is the lack of belief in god. We aren't the ones making the claim, the burden of proof is on the theists.
You might be after the Gnostic atheists.
______
Edit: My mistake.
- BenovereLv 49 years ago
There is no proof of the nonexistence of a god. There is proof against specific gods, but not gods in general. You need to be specific on what you consider to be a god. A being that instantaneously poofed the world and everything in it to existence? Wrong.
Omnipotence in general has its limitations, obviously.
Omnipresence would suggest that the entity resides outside of what we consider to be the fourth dimension, or time. The being would have free reign in this dimension. See Hafele-keating experiment to see why this may be possible.
- Peace of MindLv 49 years ago
Stories from the bible (old testament) are seen In the Sumerian tales of Gilgamesh written thousands of years before the Torah was even conceived which is said to have been the origins of those same stories .
Source(s): Gilgamesh vs. the Bible - 9 years ago
God is self-contradicting. Concepts like omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence are paradox and completely illogical. For example, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle shows that omniscience is absolutely impossible and a nonsense concept. And then, as creator of everything, god is supposed to have created himself. A nonsense concept.
- ?Lv 79 years ago
We know how religion evolved in early human societies and how people invented numerous gods. The Christian god is no different, and there is no more reason to believe in him than in Zeus, Thor, Huitzlopochtli or any other god.
- ?Lv 79 years ago
There are no valid reasons that show there is no God, but Cause and Effect is evidence enough
for a reasonable person.
Without God nothing can explain life and the universe.
Source(s): Genesis 1:1 God the Creator