Question for Okinawan and Japanese Martial Arts instructors.?

I'm not an instructor of either style, but am a student of Japanese Aikido. And this subject came up explicitly when I joined: refer to sensei as "Sensei XXXX" or "XXXX Sensei". Never "master".

In Taekwondo, a Korean style, most of my current and past instructors (maybe all?) are referred to as "Master XXXX". I do not ever refer to them as "my master", but rather "my instructor". As such, I use "master" as a title - a pronoun - but not otherwise a noun or adjective.

Some refer to me as "Master XXXX", and I am quick to correct them "Mr XXXX" or just my first name.

EDIT: Thanks JW!

Taekwondo founders came from a variety of backgrounds: military, college, etc. The term "Sabumnim" can be used as generic "instructor", and typically refers to 4th dan and above. Koreans tend to equate this as "master", as there was a time when 4th was the highest one could attain. Certainly, when one reached the highest degree, one could then be a master, yes? But of course, we've added in more degrees, and - not surprisingly - the term "master" stuck. We have master carpenters, master chefs, master smiths, yes? And attaining the title "master" in those respective professions took a long time - not that different than the then-4th dans.

But today, we in TKD also have a tendency to be hierarchy-driven as well - particularly in larger schools whose kwan founder was in the military. Each dan tends to have a meaning - like lieutenant, captain, major, etc. It's not unheard of for 1st dans to be referred to as "jokyonim" (junior assistant instructor), "kyosanim" (junior instructor), "bu-sabumnim" (assistant or vice instructor), "sabumnim" (instructor), "kwangjangnim" (head instructor, grandmaster, headmaster), and chong kwangjangnim (chief grandmaster), yada, yada, yada. You tend to find these in styles whose original kwans were military based.

For comparison, in the US:

- Master carpenter can take as little as 7 or 8 years - usually takes 20 years or more

- Master technician requires about 4 years of study.

- Master diver requires 40 dives.

- Master mason - can take as little as 8 months

- Master jewelers need at least 5 years of study - and about $40k of investment

- Master electrician - at least 7 years as an apprentice, or, earn a BS in Electrical engineering

- Master sommelier - they say only a few years minimum. There are 201 master sommeliers in the world today.

- You can be a chessmaster in a year - you just have to win a lot of tournaments

- Master barber - around 4-5 years

- Master chef - several years as an apprentice, then, qualify to take a test offered once a year. There are only 100 in the world today.

- Master plumber (in new york city) - minimum 10 years

- Master blacksmith - at least 10 years

So a title of "master" in different professions is valid - some are "certified masters" if they take a test. It's understandable that people think of martial arts in the same way.

Very good question. I too also notice the obvious overuse of the term Master. There simply are not that many masters out there. So you and I both know that many of these questions are being posted by either those that don't train, Or, they do not know what a master is and thus assume or are wrongly told that their instructor is a Master.

For what its worth none of my students refer to me as a master. Although I hold masters titles in several arts, I don't like to be called one. I know I have much to learn yet. If we were to use titles we certainly would not use English titles such as Master. My students call me Sensei. When talking to others about training with me they may refer to me as their Sensei. In cases where the question is asked they will say that I am a master.

I was taught that when in a dojo training under a Master that the correct way to address him is Sensei. BUT, when outside the dojo to refer to him as Shihan, or what ever his correct title is in Japanese. I find hearing young people refer to their instructor as Master distasteful. If we are going to wear Asian style uniforms, belts, and use Asian terminology for the techniques, style, ...etc then to use the term Master is just wrong. Often here we also see people that supposedly study a Japanese, Korean or Okinawan martial art call their instructor a coach or trainer, and the place where they train a Gym.

Anyone that knows anything about correct Japanese, ...etc. terms knows that the Asian terms have a Deeper meaning. to call someone a coach when they are a Sensei, is condescending at best. Sensei is loosely meant to mean Instructor. BUT, its real meaning is not teacher or instructor. The meaning is more like "He who has gone before". Meant to indicate someone that is much more than just a teacher, instructor, on coach. The same holds true with the meaning of the word Dojo. It is not meant to be just a gym. It means Do-Jo, or Way-Place. Or more in the way we talk "The Place where you learn the Way". Again meant to indicate a place that is special and much more than just a Gym. It is a Place where the instructor is a person that has great knowledge.

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As the saying goes, "To know the path through the mountains, you must ask those who have already walked it."

As an instructor, you hope that the knowledge that you pass on will continue to survive, obviously, but it is the knowledge itself that should matter, not who gave it to you.

When we are reduced to our simple truths, we are all humans, we have brains for thinking and mouths to pass the thoughts on, just because each brain and mouth are located in an identity, it does not mean that the identity holds the same gravity.

For example; what/who was more important, the founder of a martial art, or the fact that the art was used to save lives?

Students of the arts refer to their instructors a lot. This is because an instructor does not just teach martial arts, he/she teaches a way of existence. Instructors are mentors in life, they make very big impacts and change most students for better or worse. As long as the student realises that it is the teachings that are passed on that holds importance and not that it came form Master.... then the teacher has done their job.

I rather have my students speak from experience. When they answer a question they should explain why the answer is applicable. Not just because I told them how. So instead of saying 'my sensei taught me... They should say I learned this works because...."

I think its up to the instructor to decide in my opinion. I'm just fine with being called sensei. I don't want to be called master even if I ever earn that title.

I have been under a 10th dan from Okinawa for the last 7 years and have never referred to him or any other 10th dan in Okinawa as anything other than Sensei. In fact, I was at a seminar where someone did refer to my Sensei as Master and he corrected him. He made a big point that Sensei means one born before, like an older brother and that when he trains people, we learn together. I figure that if my Sensei who was recognized as a 10th dan and his friends who were also recognized never used the term Master then I have no right to claim it myself.

I have to say that I to like the idea of Sensei as older brother as it gives to that old Okinawan Karate saying that is "when we meet, we are family"

While I practiced Kyokushin the guy who taught me was my 'Sensei' my teacher, I referred to his teacher as 'Shihan' because that's what everyone else in my dojo called him, he was also high ranking. When I went and trained under him for a month he corrected me when I called him 'Shihan' because while I train under him he's my teacher my 'Sensei' not some formal ranking etiquette.

Seemed fair enough to me.

I don't think I've ever referred to anyone as 'Master'. Outside of the dojo my Karate 'Sensei' was "Coach". Even as a lower grade I was on a first name basis outide the class with the shodans and nidans so I never really had to search for a name to use in public. My current teachers go by 'Kru' and 'Professor' when they absolutely have to but otherwise prefer a first name basis, they have taken a liking to being called 'Coach' as a title.

It's just a matter of the kind of people you train with.

Too many "masters", and not enough minions.

I have never referred to any of my instructors as "Master", usually Sensei, or Shihan is adequate for formality.

When I have been referred to as a master, I have shut that down soon as I heard it. There are very many wannabe masters, and very few real ones. The most masterful in my acquaintance protest use of the term being used in reference to them.

To me the term "master" has become much over used and misapplied so that it really holds little value or meaning to me especially when they introduce themselves as that or have others address them that way. MMA types and fighters address me by my first name although some will instead use my last name and Mr. with that. Even when they use my first name its not done with a lack of respect and that's fine for me in that environment.

Students and other instructors though use Sensi or Mr. and that's fine. I don't consider myself a master; nor do I want to be lumped into that category that misuses and mis-applies that title either like many do today. In my style, Shito-ryu and the group I am affiliated with the master himself never uses that title except when signing something like a promotion certificate. Others see and recognize him as that and he holds that title but does not wear it on his sleeve. His name and reputation precede him along with his knowledge and ability really among all of us anyways. It is also the same for the Shihan of my style although technically he falls under that category of "master" also.

For me its much like when I was in the military especially in my later years and a person of rank, experience, and ability. If I had to constantly rely on my title and rank then that indicated maybe a lack of skill, experience, and ability. Instead I always wanted my reputation and that together with my skill, experience, and ability establish who and what I was so that I did not have to rely on my title and rank. Title and rank just gave me something more in the way of authority and some privileges and responsibility; not necessarily the respect and admiration of my superiors, peers, or those under me. Instead it was my reputation together with with my experience and ability that did that.

In Aikido one addresses his "instructor" as "sensei" and sensei of a certain rank and linage, those specifically of the first generation or those who studied directly with O Sensei hold the rank of "Shihan" or "Master", which is more a sign of longevity in the art.

This one allows his students to address him as they deem fit and encourages them to address this one by his name in whatever language they may choose. Often times, beginning or new students are most respectful...LOL! and the honors this one receives are pretentious to say the least.

This one remembers that some of the sifus this one studied with called all their students the equivalent of "young punks" and we addressed them as "old goats" but always in an affectionate manner...LOL

one of my sensei's is an 8th degree from okinawa if i ever called him master he would take my head off for it.

on the floor we are to refer to him as sensei nothing else is acceptable, title wise on paper its a different story

as for what my students call me on the floor i prefer sensei, outside the dojo im not too picky