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Bogeyman61 asked in SportsMartial Arts · 7 years ago

Has any one had direct contact with a less than reputable Krav Maga school? Let me know, I'm trying to fix it.?

I am asking because I guess I am lucky enough to have found a really good one, and so far the other instructors and affiliates I have had contact with take their responsibility to their system and their students totally seriously.

I know there are many of you out there that have had some very negative experiences with KM at some point and I am trying to figure out which organizations they are with within the KM family, and which affiliates are denigrating the KM system by being weak/false in their representation. I am asking for assistance in trying to correct what I feel to be a very dangerous prospect of KM "McDojos". KM is supposed to be about survival at all costs, not about pure marketing and money at the cost of KM's integrity and possibly the actual safety of students who are not aware they are in an environment that is not looking out for their best interest regarding their physical welfare and safety.

I am serious about trying to follow up, and getting these issues corrected. It is something I can not do alone, and only those of you who have direct knowledge of where and when it has happened, and is happening can provide me with the information I need. Please, I am asking this of you because until just a day ago I had the idea that the instructorship of KM as a whole maintained the same level of integrity that I have experienced over the last nine years (wishful thinking I guess). I have met dozens of instructors, and hundreds of students, through National training seminars over the years. And I was genuinely shocked to find the opinions I have seen here about KM. At first I thought it to be the standard "my system is better, yours sucks." But I have discovered it to be a lack of integrity in the manner in which some instructors are teaching and representing KM, and for that I apologize to all of you who have had the misfortune to have dealt with that type of situation.

Please let me know what you experienced, here on the boards, or feel free to email me to convey your messages. Thank you all in advance.

Update:

2/14/2014 7:30a

Good morning everyone. Thank you for responding. I have to leave for work but I will try to expound on my intent and address the additional aspects you present as soon as I can. even knowing I can not fix everything, are you saying I shouldn't try? Would you give up? I will work to connect woth each of you if you are willing, and if I can get just one location back on track wouldn't that be worth the effort?

Update 2:

@ KW, the more you talk about these things the less it sounds like you really understand. I won't block you or stop communicating with you, but you don't even try to actually address most of the questions you respond to. It's more like "Blah, blah, blah, white-noise, white-noise,...now let me tell you how great I am in what I know about MMA."

The fact that you use the reference to forms and "dead" patterns when talking about KM means you don't understand that KM, like all military combat systems, IS A MIXED MARTIAL ART. It derives it's system from all other systems. Are there weak schools and instructors? Yes. But not understanding that MMA is a generic term for any non traditional system made up from other systems, is a worse weakness. Especially when attempting to tout the "greatness" of MMA and the knowledge you have of it. I consider you to be the "devil's advocate" to real knowledge and wisdom in Martial Arts. But han

Update 3:

@ JKD Disciple,

I will take account of people who say they have had poor experiences with KM with some merit. I have had poor experiences with other schools and instructors in my past, even though the system they represented (all be it badly) was a bona fide martial system. When you have enough people saying they have come accross a bad instructor, it is wiser to look into it than to ignore it. That is how I deemed there are weakened representations of KM being taught, that and having been provided with related video documentation of KM classes that never should have been undertaken in the first place. Teaching KM to a bunch of 5 and 6 yr. old kids is like teaching a cat to fetch,... One in a hundred might actually get it, but it will only be by sheer luck. And the rest know you are doing "something", but haven't got a clue as to what or why.

I don't worry so much about what is said here about KM. But if there are others who can document their negative experiences I

Update 4:

@ John (member since 2-15-2011),

I like you, mostly, you're entertaining. You say..."There are thousands upon thousands of crappy KM schools.", and you know this personally how? I have worked with Darren Levine (founder of KM Worldwide) who was Imi Sde-Or's first American student. Darren trained directly with Imi to establish a true presentation of KM and to spread real KM across the U.S. . I have also trained with John Whitman (former V.P. of KM Worldwide, and founder of KM Alliance), his training is directly with the IDF, and his instruction is of military and law enforcement orgs. across the U.S. and internationally. Is that direct enough for you?

I understand the "watered down" issue and that is why I tell people to check out the schools they are thinking of attending. The schools that are legit can be traced to legitimate parent organizations. And one other thing, when dealing with KM, as with any system being taught to make people safer, making mistak

Update 5:

@ Riley,

Situational awareness is only one aspect of KM training, although it is an extremely important one. If those people's instructors were telling them to also train in MMA and Crossfit it may have been to make them more well-rounded as MAs. Worst case scenario, it was because they didn't know how to teach the KM techniques themselves.

Update 6:

@ Jim R,

Thank you for wishing me "luck", and I agree that each school must be evaluated on it's own merit, but if I can find one bad school/instructor and follow up to bet it corrected (even just one) it will not have been a failure. One school can affect hundreds of students over time, and a bad school can affect thousands more through negative word of mouth. There is a saying in business..."A satisfied customer will tell one person about their experience. A dissatisfied customer will tell TEN." Of those ten, even if only one tells ten others, and it continues that way, you have an epidemic of negativity based on the failings of one location. It's effects are much more far reaching than just that school's students or the area they are in.

It's a FIGHT! And in a fight you can't give up or you will lose. All it takes is that one decisive move to change the outcome.

Update 7:

@ Everyone, Thank you for the feedback. I am sincere in saying I appreciate everyone's involvement in this issue. I will pick an answer sometime in the next couple of days.

@ Shaeeck,

To say it can never be undone is like saying an epidemic is so widespread that you should stop trying to heal people. That kind of view just gets a lot of people dead.

Update 8:

2/15/2014 2:15pm

I am going to pick a best answer, not because I actually think it's the best but because I don't want the question to disappear from the board. The thing I noticed most, and it is totally disheartening to think Martial Artists would actually feel this way, is that each of you ended your answer with a defeatist view. Except for Riley. He asked a clarifying question but didn't go negative in any way.

Giving up on making the reputation of your system better should never be an option.

6 Answers

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  • Anonymous
    7 years ago
    Favorite Answer

    Isn't krav maga just situation awareness training atleaset the civilian version all the guys I know who did it sadi there guys told then to do mma or cross train under different arts.

  • Anonymous
    5 years ago

    I'm not entirely sure about Krav Maga, as it seems to have wildly differing standards of teaching, with there being some downright bad commercial and exploitative schools (although many styles do, so I can't fault just Krav Maga for that). For getting yourself out of trouble in playground fights (that is, defending yourself long enough to stop the fight), I'd recommend a style like Wing Chun or another good Kung Fu style, or just normal boxing. Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu can also be good, but it is rare to find. An important thing to consider is how good the martial arts teacher you go to is, though. The styles I mentioned above might not be taught well in your local area, so you'll want to read up on what is available. Ultimately, all martial arts have some element of practicality to them (even Tai Chi, believe it or not), but it's about how easily they are applied, and how well they are taught. If you're looking at a style, and it doesn't look like it's something that could work in a fight, then feel free to be skeptical of it. But also remember that many martial arts consist of a lot of conditioning exercises, rather than just moves you would use in a fight.

  • ?
    Lv 4
    7 years ago

    Your intentions may be honorable but I don't understand the plan here. There are thousands upon thousands of crappy krav maga schools. The way I see it the only way a krav maga school can be good is if it has tied to the Israely military. That's where krav maga originates and that's the only place where real krav maga is taught out. What I mean with ties is that someone has to have learned krav maga in the military. But what has happened is that those ties are lost. And that's how it became watered down.

    Today KM is marketing itself as self defense for everyone. In a way it's correct because self defense is for everyone. However in order to get more people and more money standards are kept low. If you would raise the intensity of workouts, start doing real sparing and all that, then less people would come. If you would have the same standards as in the military then even less people would come. And that's where the problem originated - $$$.

    It's not your job to follow up on every school on the planet to see if they are good or not. Some of us are not even Americans, like me. You keep your school good and that's all you can do. People need to learn to do some basic research before they start training any martial arts. A lot of people will get screwed by the McDojos but hey there is nothing you can do about that. You do you, concentrate on your training, hopefully it's high quality and let people make their own mistakes.

  • Anonymous
    7 years ago

    You will never stop it. This problem plagues all styles to a degree. They become watered down and its worse when the style becomes popular because every man and their dog wants to jump on the band wagon.

    For every one school someone tells you about 4 or 5 new ones have started up, You only need to look online on youtube and see for yourself the amount of school teaching trash. This is with every style even BJJ (i do agree with KW that the style is hard to fake, but its not faked it gets diluted from its GJJ roots).

    Of course there are some wonderful KM schools out there but to many bad ones that unfairly tip the scales against real KM. Even in your KM alliance there will be rubbish schools whether you like it or not. They may be teaching real KM but have a poor instructor, so the problem is too widespread and it can never be undone.

    You cant stop an avalanche

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  • ?
    Lv 4
    7 years ago

    First of all, how did you discover there is in fact a lack of integrity in teaching and representing KM in one day? 24 hours and you can confidently speak for the hundreds or thousands of teachers representing KM? You say you have met dozens that you deem acceptable, so explain how you have met, and evaluated at least an equal number in the last day?

    You are trying to be PC I think. You are going entirely by what you read here, and that is nothing more than who has a bigger art. Ask yourself how many people have met and sparred with dozens of KM teachers? Ask yourself how many people here have actually trained in KM, for a reasonable period, lets say 5 years? There are tools on this site that will say they have studied "martial arts" for 40 years and will say "most" KM schools are bogus. There are tools here like the two that have responded already that are basing their belief on what...ask them how long they studied KM and under who?

    It's very amusing to see the leading McDojo "respectfully" acknowledge KM is one. Hello??? The Gracies are offering online training and instructor certification. Ask any teacher, including these two tools if anyone can seriously train and learn from a DVD, and they will say no, that is McDojo, yet they ignore that. lil KW is a low level BJJ'er and teaching, another element of McDojo-ism. Shae, if you read her, is so full of double standards she contradicts herself daily. (as seen by her calling KM a McDojo and being a proud rep of one) A real teacher understands that double standards are the mark of a beginner.

    I wouldn't worry about what anyone on this board says about KM.

  • Jim R
    Lv 7
    7 years ago

    It's problem stems from popularity.

    The least popular styles have the highest percentage of legitimate schools.

    Popularity causes the McDojo effect to kick in.

    The statement that MMA is exempt from this is absurd, it is very popular, and has many bad schools.

    the best of them isn't that good.

    I wish you luck fixing that, while knowing you will not be successful.

    Best we can do is evaluate each place by it's won merit.

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