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Utah Code 76-5-109 Child Abuse – Child Abandonment, Part (6) A parent or legal guardian who provides a child with treatment by spiritual means alone through prayer, in lieu of medical treatment, in accordance with the tenets and practices of an established church or religious denomination of which the parent or legal guardian is a member or adherent shall not, for that reason alone, be considered to have committed an offense under this section.

What this section says is that withholding medical treatment is only considered abusive if the parents aren’t religious. So an atheist who doesn’t believe in using medical treatments could be convicted of child abuse for withholding treatment, but a Christian Science adherent who allows their child to die while only using prayer to heal them isn’t guilty of child abuse.

Why does our code have this protection of religious ideals in there? Who really thinks this is a good idea to not protect children from parents that would refuse to give them medical treatment for life-threatening conditions, based on religious beliefs or not? How many children need to die before we remove this from our lawbooks?

Isn’t “spiritual healing” covered in the very next part or the code? It states, “A parent or guardian of a child does not violate this section by selecting a treatment option for the medical condition of the child, if the treatment option is one that a reasonable parent or guardian would believe to be in the best interest of the child.”

This seems to cover faith-based healing to a certain degree where the long-term health and life of the child are not in danger. Relying on prayer to treat a child with minor illnesses can be viewed as reasonable but refusing treatment for fully treatable, life-threatening conditions should not be.

If God knows everything in the past, present, and future, and assuming he knew all this when he created each of us, he knew exactly how each of us would turn out as he created us.

One could argue that he created us much the same way an author creates a character. But does a character in a book have free will? Likewise, do we have free will given that God not only knew exactly how we would turn out in the moment he made us, but he also had an intimate knowledge of every one of our thoughts, actions, and sins?

And how are we to believe that we will be judged for our behavior when God created us to that exact end? And why would he create so many people knowing, as he created them, that they were destined to suffer the pains of hell for eternity?

...of children and innocent men?

If not, do you think torture is justifiable? Why?

If not, have you read about Guantanamo, the reduction of personal freedoms, or the diplomatic train wreck we've just been through?

Give his name and your reasons...

the faith of the pupils?

Explain why you think what you do...unless you just like racing to see who can type "yes" or "no" fastest, then don't explain anything. ;)

Kinda tied to my previous question...but when would it be best to expose kids to this material? Parents and churches start teaching religion to kids even before they can talk or go to school.

I'm talking about historical religious instruction that covers all the various religions. I'm wondering what effect it would have on the intensity of our future generation's religious convictions.

cases of rape, incest, etc.?

How does this work? How is murder okay because of what happened to the mother? Either it's murder or it isn't...right?

Doesn't it seem odd that this society kept two separate records of the spiritual/religious history and the secular history? Doesn't it seem more likely that an ancient American civilization would not have any separation between the two? Or even consider that a separation would be possible? Even the Book of Mormon talks about the belief of the people of God being involved in EVERY aspect of their lives and yet when Joseph Smith happens to loose 116 pages of his manuscript, suddenly there is a separate, but parallel history (although somewhat shorter) but which focuses more on the spiritual aspects of this ancient civilization! Please tell me how this can be! It seems that Joseph was telling a story set to the political makup of his experience in 1830's America rather than something that could have occured in ancient America.

Specifically about the breastplate...Jospeh describes these as being held in some sort of framework much like oversized spectacles rather than how the sacred breastplate is described in Exodus 28:15-19.

Joseph's descriptions just don't match up to historical evidence.

Joseph Smith found the golden plates "on the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates, deposited in a stone box." Why hasn't anyone found this box! Wouldn't this give a lot of credibility to Joseph's story?

10 points on the line...

10 points on the line here for one of the faithful!

I'm still on the rolls as a Mormon and I still live the Mormon lifestyle except for giving them my money and time and undergarment decisions...oh, and sometimes I swear.

...when a huge amount of material from that source is used in church manuals, instruction materials, books, quotes, etc.

Do you ever say, "Well, that's from the Journal of Discourses, which isn't an official church publication, so it's probably wrong," when you are reading the Priesthood and Relief Society manuals or accounts in the Ensign?

What, you get to pick and choose from the same source which are the historically correct quotes and which aren't?

I'm am truly amazed at how this works, especially since many of the "anti" quotes taken from this publication are supported by numerous other sources (pioneer diaries, letters, newspapers, magazines, etc.)

It seems that some people just want to put their fingers in their ears and chant, "I can't hear you," whenever someone brings up a point that might challenge their beliefs.

The church makes it sound like they were pacifists that were victimized by the evil Missourians when in fact they too, burned down houses, shot their enemies, and stole thier property.

I ask this question because I'm so tired of the persecution complex that members seem to display like a badge of honor. The implication is that they've been put down, raped, and murdered more than others and so it must be that Satan himself is leading the evil men of the world to fight against God's true church.

Just remember that the history you are fed and the movies that you see at the Joseph Smith Memorial building are written by those who portray the historical record to only favor the LDS church. If you actually study the history of what happened you will see that those who fought against Joseph and his church had just grievances and had suffered under the hand of Mormons as well.

...and before you say, "but who started it?" let me remind you about what Jesus said about the other cheek.

Do you think there is just enough of the Christian voice in goverment? Not enough? Too much?

What are your opinions on the matter?

Thanks for your answers.

Would you ignore the issue?

Would you want to talk to them?

Would you want to prove them wrong?

How would you react to this situation?

What would you do?