?

my latest job has allowed me to luckily work 100' from the NS mainline, which is a nice change from my living next to CSX. and with this new fortune i have had the priveledge of witnessing intermodal, gen merch., and local service at a rate of 2 trains an hour on average. NOT BAD for a recessionary economy. and i havent included Amtrak sightings yet either! (4 daily that i see)

imagine my suprise when i started seeing UP yellow locomotives roll by! we dont get many of those on the east coast!!!! well, as nice as all this is, its still the latest generation locos. except the locals. those however are powered by second gen locos. of four axle nature. and to my point. GP vs SD.

all you see now is 6 axle stuff. the GPs are relogated to all the lowly jobs much like steam was in its final days. until one day i saw an SD40 roll in behind a GP on the local. and i thought, wow, an SD40 on a local? so if SDs are now starting to run the lowly jobs, does this mean the chapter is closed on GP locomotives working the mainline trains? are we relogated now to an SD market only?

finally one day after even the mighty SD40 has brought in the last local on some obscure backwoods local turn and is shut down one last time, will we be only snapping photos of these 6 axle behemoths that stomp around the rails today?

truth be known, that high nosed GP38 (and SD40 for that matter) looked a dam sight better than what we have today. ofcourse thats my opinion, and looks dont run a railroad.

recently i had asked the forum about what chemicals were added (if any) to water systems to keep them from freezing. i had rationalized that if they add chemicals to water for anti-foaming and scaling, then why not to keep water from freezing in water towers and tenders (when the locos werent in motion) in the winter months.

the answers sufficed, for those circumstances. since that time i cycled my weekly desktop picture to the latest: NYC's Empire State Express of WWII vintage. a train that is equal rival to that of the SP's Daylight or SR's Crescent in beauty! as i starred intently, it hit me! track pans!!!!

for those who dont know ( and for yall left coasters too ), track pans are exactly that. a pan like device affixed to the tops of the ties betwixt the rails and filled with water. allowing passing locomotives with 'water scoop' equipped tenders to be refilled on the fly (at significantly slower speeds).

now here we have small amounts of water, only used so often, and not moving. track pans were in use as far as i know on NYC, MC, and maybe one or two others big ones (Pennsy??) . mostly in the northeast from michigan thumb over to NY. around the great lakes area we all know water in those conditions wouldnt take any time to freeze.

would the same answers from before still apply, or not? now ive never really considered tracks pnas being as simple as they are, but im left wondering were they heated possibly? if we can heat switches, why not track pans??

ok, im callin ya out. in a recent posting where i had asked about freezing water and additives, one of our resident engineer/authors made mention of feedwater heating systems. and everything mentioned about them was ringing true to what i knew about them except one thing....

the tender water would be warm (compared to exterior temps ofcourse) because the FWH system has some kind of heating 'element' in the tender? it sudenly dawned on me was this answer similar to cars having muffler bearings? is this a railhead having a good joke on one of us foamers? (ofcourse i reread it several times, i still could be misinterepting answer, my apologies)

so thats when i decided, im not touching google ( i will peruse my library though), im gonna call ya out. i would indeed love to see some kind of drawings or schematics, even pictures would do of this tender heating system. heres your chance to make a foamer eat crow if you can send me or show me this kind of device. the tender unit that is, i have all the pics of FHWs i need.

and certainly this is open to any engineer (even our foreign brethren though bear in mind ive never studied your railroads) or railfan. if you had a pie in your hand heres your chance to throw it, i wont duck!

while frosty cold questions are all the rage right now, heres one more to shiver over.....

probably more so in steam locomotives that diesel (and certainly even with air systems with 'air dryers') the air operated systems from brakes to bell ringers can have moisture in them. moisture as we know can freeze, and in a brake system this isnt advisable. at the same time, having your communication/warning device freeze up isnt too much fun either. simple solution ofcourse now, is alcohol. but is it used in railrway applications? coupling frozen cars in a yard surely lets in moisture from the glad hands up to the valve. as soon as those cars are coupled and valves opend to tie into trains brake line, theres your water in the line. i can well imagine this can give false brake pipe gauge readings (or fluctuating ones) and irratic brake behavior during applications. i also imagine this being worse in the age of steam, that which is of lesser technology than today. not to mention air gets warmer when passed through the compressor. that has to be a devastating combo. is there a bleed down of air from the last car (farthest from supply point thus pushing out water.) before 'pumping up the air' for a departure?

more times than not it seems an answer is given that brings up more questions. from a recent posting about ice on the rails, brought up a que id like to ask....

weve all seen pics and vids of rotarys clearing snow thats almost if not just as high as they are. it seems to me it would have been much easier to run one train an hour to clear a foot of snow than it would 1 train for two days clearing 10-12 feet. even in mtn passes and the like. i cant really even see how the cost of both operations really differs. sure, thats alot of fuel and man hours to run every hour. but so is the clean up from putting your rotarys power units on the ground from pushing too much too fast. so either way, it cant be the cost, can it? id like to know if this goes much deeper than just the same olds like money and time.

personally i have found it much easier to clear my driveway twice, than to try and heave it all out at one doing. seems logical this would apply to railroads. and please dont remark that railroad management isnt logical. lol that we already know, and thats too easy an answer! give us the good dirt on how youd blow open a pass that just had 10 to 15 feet of snow dumped all over it.

in time a lil farther than youd like to go lol. i know additives were put into the water supplies of steamers. but what i have never heard of is what was added to the water to keep it from freezing? i know no additive would be needed for a moving locomotive (moving/sloshing water doesnt freeze) but what of stationary locos, and water towers for instance? something simple yet i have never heard of it.

my current posting tells a short story, and asks a few questions. in one of the engineers responses, "Andy's" particularly, he mentions waving a flag (or other ornament) is a signal to the engineer to stop. i didnt know this. i have seen video from 100 years ago where track crews would step aside when a train approached, pull out a white rag (presumably their hankys) and wave them fervently until the engineer of said approaching train sounded his whistle in recognition of "seeing" the crew on the ground. very smart and sound idea!

now, in my other posting my intent was not to stop the train, yet have them proceed at a caution. there was no emminant danger as the deputy and I had the crossing protected (trying to keep Amtrak and CSX happy too here). i didnt wave my towel, yet displayed it broadfaced towards the train. my intent was for the engineer to see a "yellow". i had no idea if he had been prewarned by radio and had to go under the premise he hadnt!

Andy says wave it, they stop. can we have some clarification here as to should we wave or not? does color mean anything in this type of situation or any other situation? i would hope anything red would instantly trigger the " i gotta stop" response from the engineer. and you have to know if i needed that train to stop because of danger, i would have done way more than displayed a yellow towel. id be kicking screaming yelling throwing ballast at the car body. heck id get the officer to fire a few rounds in the air if i thought something bad was definately gonna happen.

though, like my other posting, this wasnt the case. only a cautionary proceed was needed. it worked out that way anyways. i agree, there should be contingency plans already inplace between railroads, crews, and local authorities. but what of the common man? certainly we could instill a universal guidline for simple emergency communication from the ground to the crew. SOS seems to have worked well over the years.

not being a member of a railcrew it is had to imagine what would trigger an instant response if danger was present to alert an unknowing crew. especially one with passengers. im not giving any lesser creedence to a train carrying propane or styrene lol. and not just serius emergencys, what of just "hey i was just railfanning up the tracks and saw some deer on them.", you know just a simple keeps your eyes peeled theres something on the tracks ahead.

any ideas?

i was approaching a multi track grade crossing known to have a 'mind of its own'. ofcourse, it was having one of its moments.... gates down, lights and bells everywhere! but no train. ofcourse, i dont assume that, but people who just cant wait, or take the risk anyways were going around the gates. like i said, it was known to act on its own. this is a crossing in an industrial area, the road leading to residential. both cars and large rigs use it. can you imagine weaving a 53' (plus tractor!) van around gates? IDIOTS i tell ya!

ok so i park the car and call the number on the pole. i get some tight a** whos crue cut i can hear over the phone who seems to know nothing about a railroad being out here. i gave him city name, crossing # and road name. even track numbers! (im a railfan dammit!). he could only call a supervisor. ok, it was up to me to call local sheriff for road control before some butthead bought the front end of an AC GE.

not long after, a southbound Amtrak was heading our way. i could hear him leave the station 2 miles up track. i told the deputy (who had arrived by then) to go to other side of tracks and halt traffic. i went to my car and grabbed a yellow towel and returned to my side of crossing to block cars. i displayed as best i could the yellow towel towards the oncomming train.

thank goodness you engineer types pay attention. as soon as he came around the curve and saw us, on came the horn and brakes. i imagine he was suprised to see a blue light flashing at his crossing with people around. but he got his train to stop in time and quick as a flash out came a female. well if engineer is inside, and conductors ride in the cars on Amtrak, who was this? as she got half way towards me her radio chimed off 'come on ?????, get back on, we have a clear'. she turned and without a word got back on and away they went. SAFELY!!!!

now i cant help but think this went well considering. but it raised questions.... like,

1. why dont railroads and local authorities share emergency contact info?

2. why would a number on a signal pole call to security and not someone more in touch with operations? (not to mention someone atleast in my own state!)

3. are train crews alerted at all to this kind of situation?

4. who could that female have been? multiple conductors?

5. ofcourse the engineer was alert enough to see the blue lights ahead, but do you think he reasoned my intent with the yellow towel?

6. the deputy who showed up was clueless to any organizational needs to get the situation under control ( theres a shock!), and stated he had no way to contact any railroad official to warn them. how is this possible?

7. do you think the right steps were taken to for all concerned to have gotten to the point of no wreck, train or car, and everyone went one their way?

8. if not, what could have been done better. certainly the only players oblivious to the situation was the train crew and passengers.

yeah, i know, its a long one. but all TRAINS of thought should be!

tell me again whats so special about AC units?? from a recent posting about brake procedures from our residant engineers, i had read a couple lines mentioning having an all AC lash up (DPMs yes and/or no... either way) would be a different story concerning brake apllications on a hill. now forgive me if i read this wrong, but did i understand those posts to read that if you have no air recharged, and you release from emer. application that AC units would hold the train?

if so i find that one hard to believe guys. but yall are in the know so who am i to say otherwise. and thus my quandry. i studied intensely the workings of steam. diesels however are the locomotives of my lifetime. having just returned to the hobby in the last couple of years i have been trying to get all the new innovations under my belt. sure, i know its "another question about braking". and we all know how yall love those! i just wont be able to sleep now untill yall clarify some of this.

it would help too if the acronyms are explained. not all of us know our IPS valve from a hole in the ground lol. i would like to know if you wouldnt mind informing us of just how an operation would go if your on a hill and you have to stop. im curious to know when your down to just an engineer and conductor, how the heck are you supposed to tie down a train when your so labor starved? (does anyone still hear the call for BRAKEMEN!)

curious to know to how all the calamity plays out with DPMs. say your trains breaks in half while DPMs are pushin from the rear. sure, the train goes into emergency, but now you have one crew and two trains. from my point of view, irrespective of some 'best practices book' of any railroad, its seems like you guys are set up to fail no matter what. sounds like each and every time you head out you have to hope and prey every little piece is up to par that day. i would hate to think youd face that kind of anxiety every day, every mile.

so lets hear it for another brake operations answer! ya know we lovem!

Maybe you've thrown the bar on a nathan injector, possibly you may have even checked the sight glass on a detroit lubricator, or even 'the real 'McCoy' ". and im betting theres atleast one person out there who may have turned on the headlight by lighting the oil in it! But can you tell me about the blower! just when did this lil device become prominant in steam history. not much is usually said about such a simple little device. i know its purpose, but not much about its history. was it around before the 'modern era' of steam? certainly by the 'superpower era', that much i know.

one would summise before blowers became an everyday thing, a hostlers job was more 'attentive' in keeping the kettle simmering, so to say. any stories to tell there? shed some light on this simple, yet amiable device and i shall reward you with 10 yahoo green stamp points. (remember those from shell? then you may remember about blowers! LMAO!!)

Thank You!!!!

Ive seen it done a million times and have wondered...... when breaking cars (seperating them), ofcourse, set the brake, lift the coupler lever, and signal the engineer to pull away. notice i didnt mention the brake pipe? well, thats the question. of all the rails over the years ive asked, they all say the same thing, "yep, we just pull them apart." (one or two said they've kicked them apart.)

ok, it works, but as a maintenance man, how many cars are you replacing air lines, glad hands and hose clamps on? how many uncouplings can a car take on average? even though you get the air pumped up on your train, as the one with his pulse sitting on the big seat, dont you worry that somewhere in the mile of money behind you, theres a hoseline (or gladhand) on the verge of putting you in emergency? ever happened?

oh yeah, just kidding about the quickee, that was to get your attention on another braking (sorta)question. as always the 10 points goes to the most detailed, un-quickee like answer! take some aspirin first!

Thank You!!!!

For anyone well up on EMD E and F units: saw a rather frightful picture last night of an F unit slamming into a switcher. not pretty ofcourse. it was on a curve so the F unit fell to her side to the outside of the curve. but not before "breaking" in half right behind the cab. the picture caption remarked that this was a common feature of the Es and Fs.

By design? for safety? or design flaw? first time id seen this type of damage to an F, and certainly have never heard this comment of them. can someone clarify please?

Couple days ago i was doing some reminiscing of railfanning way back in the day. i was fondly thinking of the great time i had with the crews. got to thinking about more of the details. all the stuff they had shown me. then something popped into my head. torpedoes! back then, scary lil devices to me! but rightlyfully so. so while im here in questions, are track torpedoes still used (when needed)? are they still around? havent seen one in quite along time since ive thought about it.

thank you!

Please consider the following statement from Andy, our resident UPRR Engineer........ (in response to 'do rail cars slide and why?')

"As a rule(and there are always exceptions to that rule) the train cars don't slide even in an emergency brake application.The friction between the rail and the wheels is just too great to be overcome by the brakes due to the weight of the car.As for engines they can slide.When an emergency brake application occurs we are supposed to bail the independent engine brakes.If we don't the brake cylinder pressure can rise high enough to make the wheels slide...."

ok. makes perfect sense. BUT (lol), if a standard issue loco of todays stature weighs in at 200t plus, and a car weighs 150t loaded, how can the locos brakes overcome and lock up the wheels when its the heavier of the two and the cars cant/dont? Andys statement, while i dont doubt is 100% true, is kinda confusing to me.

i know locos have independents, that can bail off. and i know this is 'seperate' from the train line. but i quoted seperate because Andy said the pressure gets too high. im wondering is it only because the independant is stopping 3 locos (36 cyls) as opposed to the train line stopping the rest of train (500 cyls???), or in emergency, does the train line and independant connect via and emergency valve thus in a sense making them, not totally 'seperate'.

i can tell the difference between a cross compound and a glad hand, but this braking stuff is a whole other realm. i know theres alot that could be said here about braking, but the 10 pts goes to the one with the most detailed info as usual.

(i take into consideration the independent is only feet from the source whereas the train line is in some cases, almost a mile long (reaction time & pressures). while i see this can be the answer, and have been told this before, i would like to here it again. as its been a whole generation of locos and braking systems since. things change.)

Thanks guys!

Now when i was driving trucks and forklifts, when we had to load something say, way up in the front of the trailer (especially shorties [pups]) that was heavy, we used a jack/stand under the front of the trailer (ahead of the dollies). ofcourse you have to add the 5000lbs of the forklift your moving that with, too. thats alot of weight ahead of the front dollies. trailers do flip! thus, jacks/stands. remove when the back half the trailer is finished loading, and its ready for a tractor.

now ive never loaded/unloaded railcars. however my time riding in the cabs of SR 38's was switching a huge paper mill/plant. they shipped out huge rolls of paper in boxcars. i saw them drive right in with a roll and back out again. repeat. and i dont recall seeing the car tip. though i was inside, same level as the forklift, which is floor height of boxcar. so i couldnt see its underframe or trucks nor could i see if it was jacked.

do railroads or shippers jack cars for loading or unloading? seems logical you could jack a car if it had a 'lift here' plate on it.

on air brake questions? well if you are then youll be sad to know heres another one! Postulate: mu lashup of steam and diesel. consider applications of double heading excusrion service, and 'DIT'

we all know steam and diesel dont mu electrically (except through radio between the two engineers maybe?). thats a given. and we all see sometimes diesels with those ugly a** safety cabs tucked in behind a nice old vintage steamer. it always raises questions as to why. dynamic braking, emergency power if the steamer fails, save on water, etc etc. but when things are working like they are supposed to, how about explaining that. towards the point of, how often does the diesel actually 'chip in'?

im thinking of the recent answer posted by Samurai Hoghead that stated steam air pumps are nothing compared to a diesel air pumps. that being said, would the diesel provide the braking control on an excursion trip even though its not in the lead? Im sure seat of the pants and knowing the territory are the major componants of this kind of operation. but who actually works the levers, and on which loco is the lever being worked?

the modern schedule 26 brake systems.... as much as vintage steam must federally comply with certain rules/laws of modernism, are they also required to upgrade the braking controls/systems? (obvious not the pumps and tanks, but is the plumbing and valving changed to meet todays control, and standards thus making them better mu air brake wise with diesels?) most controls ive seen for steamers, seem original.

concerning the DIT loco and its placement within the last ten cars of a train. why is that? its seems that would add and unwanted amount of extra stress on the couplers having the extra weight at end. or does the fact having a compressor at the end of train aiding brake line charging (saving time) overrule the coupler problem? but what of steam? unless shes live , there would be no pumps at the end and alot of weight on those couplers. would the last ten car rule still apply? (thats supposing the rods stayed on) . thinking a special movement would apply here, almost makes me think ive answered that part of my question myself. though im sure thats not always the practice.

im sure this is worth more, but 10 points is all i can give. as usual, the most thought out detailed answer gets'em! thanks - Railfan.

More than once over the years I have seen steam in service and have wondered this... Now and then ive seen double or triple heading with other steam or diesel. sometimes its hard to tell even if they are working the steam. its obvious to hear if the diesel is working. and ofcourse its obvious to see and hear the shot gun blasts of exhaust from a steamer under strain. but how about when, the steamer is live, the stack is clear (good fireman), the diesel is in front, and they are doing between 25 and 50mph. say for instance a ferry run or dead haul move. makes me wonder just how would you put a steamer in nuetral? i cant believe its as simple as releasing the brakes. what of the back pressure build up between cylinder valve and throttle? usually the reverser position gives and indication of use, but at higher speeds the reverser would be set closer to center for the cutoff. so, clear stack, reverser in high cutoff, under steam, and doing say 40mph. im sure there are alot of situations for where and how a steamer would be "drifting" or moved in nuetral. my curiosity is from an operational stand point. how would you set it up? i would like to take a guess just to see if i can come close....

1. set reverser to minimum in direction you intend to travel so as to release steam chest pressure build up for when pistons get moving.

2. open cylinder drain cocks to drain water.

3. notch open throttle minimal to create low pressure exhaust.

4. release brakes.

even on a diesel electric, shes in nuetral, you release brakes. shes being dragged in tow. now thats simple. but.... the axles are spinning, which means the trac motor is too. i dont see how that doesnt build up volts just like it would if she was in dynamic. so what happens to the volts?

also, when a unit, steam or diesel, is in tow (live or not), i know there has to be some kinda setup for the brakes as well. seems though it would be a lil tricky with a lashup of say, diesel, live steam, train in that order. i know youd want the extra air the steamers pumps could afford, but youd still want brake control with the diesel thats in front.

there, that should get yall scratching your heads! im off to a train club meeting. were gonna do some scenery tonight. ill pose this question to the railheads there though i dont think any of them have steam experience.

thanks for the time!

PM Railfan

During a recent get together with the local liars club, we were discussing these locos along with the SD(P)40/45 series over a few cold ones. well, one of these foam guzzlers happened to have spent time on the SR as a mainline hogger. and he was tellin me, as we were discussing the differences in how the seat of the pants felt under different horsepower configs, about how the 35 was a slippery bastard. how the 38 was more preffered than the 35 even though it suffered from a 500 hp loss. ofcourse he was middle of the road on the 40 since the SR had no GP40s (the 3 GP40x dont count)only SD40s. he also mentioned that having say.... one 45 in a trio of 40 series was not noticable. though having a full trio of 45s was definately, most undeniably, an awesome amount of power that would just get up and go! not saying the 40-45-40 trio wasnt a good pull, just that one 45 wasnt noticable in a consist. im sure all engineers agree the 40 series were the best of the second generation EMD products.

i know what a 38 feels like switching. but not a 35 or 40. and ive never operated any of these on a mainline. i can also say in all my travels ive never heard of the 35 being a slippery loco (oddly enuf my time was on the SR. so now that i think about it, dam, thats right, all we used was 38s!). after all the 38 was designed to be a lighter version of the 40. stands to reason it would be the slippery one. much like the 500hp difference here, how about the 600hp difference in the 40 to 45 series. i find it hard to believe in the days of dc traction you couldnt feel 600 more horsies pulling for ya.

so, my question is, was the 35 slippery? was it the mikado killer EMD hoped it would be? is this just one hoggers bad report with this one type or do other hoggers feel the same? and can you feel the difference in locomotives in your consist. as in pulling. can you feel when one is hooking up more than another? can you tell one unit actually has say 500 to 1000 more hp than the second unit? we all know consists are made up to provide just enuf power to get you over the road. but have you ever cought yourself thinking.... 'dam i wish one of those 40s was a 45 just for the extra 500. that would get us over the hill. all i need is 500 more'?

rather long bs que i know, but these are the things you ponder when you dont earn a livin on the rails.

i see the question 'train vs something' alot. ofcourse it makes me wonder about larger objects of heavier make. like semis, trash trucks, dump trucks etc. there was a time when EMD made a cab that looked like it belonged on the front of a locomotive, not the space shuttle. ergo those sh***y looking safety cabs. id like to also mention the word anti-climber. consider all those when answering the follwing....

1) how much more underware damaging is it to realize a more significant object is in your path than your standard geo?

2) forget all the random variables (speed, weight, grade, braking) and describe how much more damaging a heavier metal hit can be? (im sure up to derailment is possible here)

3) though unlikely because of obvious reasons, is there training provided for impact situations (before hand)?

4) do the safety cabs of 3rd and 4th gen units provide collision safety, atleast adequately for a heavier object collision? (non rail to rail here)

5) if you answered 4 with a no, would you prefer a 2nd gen cab?

6) excluding all other cabs, were the 2nd gen cabs safe, even for their time?

7) do anti climbers give any benefit in an impact situation, meaning, do/would they stop an object from climbing over the pilot into the front of the cab or are they just strictly for rail to rail collisions?

8) each year test crashes are done and documented. outside of the testers, and some of the general public, are railroad employees directly informed of the findings?

9) since long hood forward is not prevalent anywhere anymore, is it safe to assume this is because is wasnt as safe as hoped in a collision, the oldest reason of: limited sight (unsafe), or the combination of both... long hood forward blocked vision, and didnt provide the protection in a collision as thought?

10) you have bells, lights, horns, plows, anti climbers, a coupler, and a trainload of weight in chinese vcrs behind you.... is there any one more device you can think of you could add to your train that may possibly aid your safety in a collision? (and dont say ejection seats, we all know yall would turn off the passenger side [conductors])

there. thats 10 ques. a point apeice. anyone who feels like answering all ten can get 1 pt for each. closest one to ten gets the ten points. comical answers accepted, points awarded for those worth writing down.

1) if the sd40 is todays 'rambler' of locomotives, then what was the 1st generations most embarrassing loco? (bl2 for instance)

2) what do you think tommarows most embarrassing locomotive will be? ( a 90mac, or a ge perhaps?)

3) whats your take on the sd45 series? were they harder workers than the 40 series, or just wishful thinking?

4) if we picked the most embarrassing loco of the first gen., what would you say would be your prime choice to operate from the first gen.?

as always, thanks for sharing!