Occam's Pitbull

We can't hope to settle the question of whether your god exists unless we know what it is we are looking for. What exactly do you mean when you say "god"?

Please be as specific as possible. I'm genuinely curious.

How is what you claim about god any different than what quantum mechanics says about the origins of the universe? If one thing can be uncaused, why can't another? Why is a god without a cause such an easy leap for you to make, but a universe without a cause is not?

1 Kings 7:23:

"And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about." (KJV)

If you weren't keeping track, that's a circle with a diameter of 10 cubits, and a circumference of 30. In order for that to work, Pi would have to be exactly 3. We all know Pi is 3.14. What gives?

Your god requires faith.

If you find evidence that he is real, then you won't need faith anymore.

If you can no longer fulfil your faith requirement, isn't hell your destination?

Maybe you should stop arguing for his existence in order to protect your souls.

I don't think that makes any sense. Allow me to explain:

Existence is necessarily temporal. Everything we know of that is real exists within space and time. Space and time are the very things we use to define existence.

What would it mean to say that something existed for 0 seconds? -5 seconds? Everything we know of that exists necessarily occupies time.

What would it mean to say that something existed but took up no space? Even the smallest things we know of, the fundamental particles, take up even a tiny amount of space.

Spacetime fundamentally describes everything that ever has and ever will exist, that we can demonstrate. What does it even mean to say that something can exist outside of it?

Can you explain your claim that god exists outside of space and time?

You are required to give reasons for the hope that you have, so you can best represent Christianity to outsiders.

Do any of you have any good reasons for belief - besides the "I feel it in my heart" or "Hell is scary" sort of reasons? The reasons you guys usually give aren't very convincing, and are therefore not fulfilling your obligation as believers - anyone care to have a go?

...here's something to consider:

We don't believe your religion in the same way that you don't believe Islam, or Hinduism, or any religion besides your own.

Can you therefore see why telling us to repent has little effect? Would you do something required of you by Islam despite thinking it is nonsense?

I mean, we don't believe because we see no good reason to. We aren't choosing hell. We just simply cannot believe your religion. In it, God created hell, then made a system where belief works like a bribe to prevent you from going to hell. The fact that I can't believe doesn't mean I am asking to go to hell. So isn't it dishonest to say that we do?

Think of it this way: If you say you love me, then hold a gun to my head and demand that I give you a thousand dollars or you will shoot me, and I don't give you the money, I did not commit suicide. Its the same exact type of scenario.

...why are only two of the Ten Commandments included in federal law?

1) Do not worship any other gods;

2) Do not make any idols;

3) Do not take god's name in vain;

4) Keep the sabbath holy...

...All fall under religious freedom guaranteed by the constitution. Citizens are free to ignore these by law.

5) Honor your father and mother;

7) Do not commit adultery;

9) Do not lie;

10) Do not covet...

...None of these are laws - EXCEPT for perjury while under oath in court (a very specific type of lie). Coveting is actually a capitalist principle - keeping up with the Joneses, wanting to be successful like the next guy, is supposed to drive the profit motive - and is valued in a way in the US.

6) Do not murder;

8) Do not steal...

...Are the only two that are actually federal laws.

How do Christians who claim that the USA is a Christian nation reconcile this? Using 20% of the ultimate Christian laws is a pretty poor track record for a nation that is supposed to be Christian in intent.

You say that your god will send us atheists to hell for not having faith.

I'm not asking why, or what he might gain from this, or anything like that. I simply want to know what YOU think of this. Just an honest yes or no to the question below is all I'm looking for - and, if you have the time, you could explain your choice. I'm not looking for "We don't get to decide what's good" or "God can do with us as he pleases", or "We don't get to judge god's actions" or anything like that. Please, just this once, an honest personal answer, from your own brains. YOUR gut reaction.

Do YOU think sending us to hell, where we will suffer for eternity, is a good and moral thing for your god to do? Why or why not?

I read, so often on this site, theists demanding that we atheists "prove that there is no god". We keep telling you that is not our responsibility, you must actually prove god before it should be believed. Still, most of you seem to have failed to grasp how the burden of proof works. Perhaps a little hypothetical situation, with a few questions, to clear it up:

You and I are sitting in a coffee house, having a friendly chat about the economy. You tell me that, while things are tough, you get by pretty good. I smile and exclaim, "I'm fine. I have a check for a billion dollars in my wallet." You smirk and say, "Suuuure you do, I don't think I believe you." I say, "You can't prove I DON'T have a billion dollar check!" Does the fact that you can't prove it isn't there in my wallet mean that it MUST be there? Does lack of DIS-proof equal proof of the billion dollars? Would you be justified in believing me, even though I won't show you? Who has the burden of proof in this situation?

Can you see, after thinking about the billion dollar check, why we say we are justified in not believing in your god(s)?

...wouldn't this section just be one big circle jerk? Christians would ask questions, get exactly the answers they want every time, there would only be thumbs up all around, everyone would praise everyone, and no one would learn a damn thing? Don't you think we make this section interesting?

Ok, bear with me a bit, but I came across a very interesting read this morning. It is a collection of anecdotes from abortion providers describing situations where anti-choice women came in for abortions. At the very least, it is an interesting read - the cognitive dissonance is amazing, to say the least. I will share the link at the bottom. I think it is really important for everyone to read, but especially for those who are anti-choice.

The whole idea that seems to be shared among these women is that "the only moral abortion is MY abortion". Many sit in the waiting room and chastise the other women, calling them tramps and sluts and what not, and assume that only THEY are there for a moral and responsible abortion, while the others are just using it as birth control.

One even says, after her abortion, that she doesn't need the free contraceptives the clinic offers because "she is christian and would never have sex before marriage". WTF?

More than one, while sitting in the waiting room, blurt out "It should be illegal!" while they wait for their abortion. WTF? Why are they there then?

Another, who was a frequent picketer of an abortion clinic, went to the same clinic for her abortion and was recognized by the clinic staff. The next day she was outside, picketing again. WTF?

So I just want to know, from those of you on either side of the issue who are able to take the time to read the site, what you think of this. Why does it suddenly become ok for these women to do something they believe should be illegal, when for every other woman it is not ok? Why would these women deny a choice to other women that they are free to make for themselves, when it suits them?

Here is the link: http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html

I just asked a question about why christians believe - several answers were along the lines of "god allows me to see him" or "its something god does to SOME people". This verse seems appropriate:

John 6:65 - Jesus says ""This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." Then, in the next line, many of his disciples stop following him...

My question is, if god wants us all to be saved, why does he not allow everyone to come to Jesus? He clearly hasn't allowed me, and millions of others. Does this verse fit with your notion of a loving god who wants everyone to be saved?

I understand WHAT you believe.

I want to know WHY you believe it.

What are the reasons/evidence you use to justify your beliefs? I mean, you can tell me to "believe or go to hell" all you want, but I see no good reason to believe in a hell, so this means nothing to me.

Also, if you can't justify your beliefs to others, if you can't give good reasons to believe what you believe, why do you believe it?

WITHOUT referencing the bible. Circular reasoning is not welcome as it doesn't count as evidence - if it works for the bible, it also works for the Quran and every other holy book.

Essentially, why do you believe what you believe about the bible? How do you know the bible is true?

Ok, I understand that not all of you believe the same things, but I mainly want to get at those who disagree with abortion as well as contraception.

For the sake of argument, let's say the issue goes away if people simply stop fornicating. However, reality demonstrates that people - regardless of their beliefs, Christians included - aren't likely to stop any time soon. That's just not how humans work; its in our nature to be sexual beings. I'm sure you can agree that a worldwide moratorium on sex isn't about to happen.

1) Aren't your objections to contraception directly in opposition to your objections to abortion? Free access to contraception is the best way to prevent abortion (and don't say 'stop having sex' - you know that isn't realistic, and not everyone thinks the way you do - and saying they should is also another unlikely solution).

2) In order to solve the abortion issue, why not a) better educate teens and young adults about safe sex, and b) throw your support behind contraception as a solution to the abortion issue? You can't argue against the fact that 100% of pregnancies that never happen don't end in abortion - and abstinence education just simply doesn't work.

So aren't you guys totally contradicting yourselves? There's a clear solution to the issue - education and available contraception - so why don't you leap at it? ESPECIALLY in a society where people who don't share your beliefs are not required to live by them. You have to live with people who don't believe the same things as you, and you can't force your beliefs on them - so wouldn't this be the best way to effect a change in society where these issues are concerned?

...all the dead saints buried around there rise up from their graves, walk into town, and talk to people?

That would've been a pretty big deal, right?

How come no one ever mentioned it except for in the bible? You'd expect someone outside of Jesus' group to write about that, wouldn't you? I mean if it actually happened.

As in what is your personal definition of the thing you call god? Can you please describe god?