holyrokker

Psalm 51:5 does not say "We inherited a sin nature from Adam". David is not making a doctrinal statement that applies to all of humanity.

It is a song of repentance. David is expressing, with strong language, the anguish of his guilt.

Notice the personal pronouns used:

blot out my transgressions

Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity

cleanse me from my sin

For I know my transgressions

my sin is ever before me

Against you, you only, have I sinned

It is obvious that David is accepting full responsibility for his actions. He is not attempting to pass his sin off on a pre-existing condition.

Also notice the wording of verse 5

David is utilizing "hyperbole" - a standard poetic practice of exaggerating a statement. The purpose is to express intense emotions, or to make a strong empression upon the reader, and should not be taken literally.

A common American hyperbole is "I'm so hungry, I could eat a horse".

David again uses this technique in verse 7:

Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;

wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Surely David isn't creating a doctrine of cleansing from sin in this statement.

Neither is he making a doctrinal statement of inherited sin nature.

Ezekiel 18:19-20 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”

The notions of inherited sin and inherited guilt are nowhere to be found in Jewish tradition. Neither is there any indication that these ideas were held in the Church prior to the 5th Century AD.

The doctrine of “Original Sin” originated with Aurelius Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, in North Africa. The central passage of Scripture for this doctrine is Romans 5:12

“Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned” (English Standard Version).

Notice that the passage says that death passed to all. It does not say that sin or that guilt passed to all men. This is an obvious reference Genesis 2:16-17

"You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Adam did indeed die on the day of his disobedience, but his death was not physical; rather it was a spiritual death. Just as physical death is the separation of man's spirit from his body, so spiritual death is separation of man from God. It is the opposite of spiritual life, which is fellowship and communion with God.

Spiritual death is separation, alienation, from God. It is not something wrong inside of man, but a negative or wrong relationship between man and God. Spiritual death is like a barrier between man and God.

A careful interpretation of Romans 5:12 depends upon the Greek prepositional phrase eph hos. This phrase is made up of a preposition (epi) and a relative pronoun (hos).

The preposition has several different meanings depending upon the immediate context and the case of the noun or pronoun with which it occurs. Since the relative pronoun (hos) is in the dative case, it should be translated "on the ground of", "by reason of", "on the condition of", "because of".

The meaning of the relative pronoun depends upon its antecedent. In the Greek language the relative pronoun agrees with its antecedent in number and gender. Here the relative pronoun is singular in number but it may be either masculine or neuter in gender. In this passage, the Greek noun thanatos (death) is the nearest singular noun, making thanatos its logical antecedent.

In this scenario then, the prepositional phrase eph hos would be equivalent to epi thanatos (because of death). In that case, the phrase should be translated "because of which" or "upon which condition."

With this meaning given to the prepositional phrase, the whole clause may be translated "because of which all sinned" and interpreted to mean that all men sinned because of the death (spiritual) that of Adam.

What this means is that Adam sinned. The result of his sin was death (separation from God). Adam was subsequently driven from the Garden and banned fro the Tree of Life.

This has resulted in a "death sentence" upon all of humanity. All of mankind is born (physically) with a spiritual separation from God.

This idea is further developed in the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus in the third chapter of John. "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” (John 3:5-6)

Here Jesus is telling Nicodemus that a spiritual birth is needed in order to have a right relationship with God, since mankind is born spiritually dead (separated from God).

Jesus is not saying that there is an inherent sinfulness to the physical birth; simply that a physical birth is not sufficient. Since God is Spirit, we must be born of the Spirit to have a relationship with Him.

Ephesians 2:1-3 "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

Let's analyze the passage for a moment.

vs 1 “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins” Notice the possessive adjective – “your”. We were dead in our sins, not in Adam’s sins.

vs 3 "...were by nature children of wrath."

In the Greek text, the verb translated “were” is in the imperfect tense, middle voice. The imperfect tense describes unfinished, continuous, or habitual action in the past. So it is characterizing the life of an unregenerate person. The imperfect would not have been used to signify someone being born into a state or condition.

The middle voice conveys the idea of personal involvement. It is not used to indicate an action imposed upon a person from the outside.

So, the passage cannot mean that we are born with a sinful nature, or that somehow Adam’s actions caused us to be born into a state whereby we are objects of God’s wrath. Instead, the passage tells us that we rightfully incure God’s wrath because of our own personal involvement in our very own sins.

Psalm 51:5 does not say "We inherited a sin nature from Adam". David is not making a doctrinal statement that applies to all of humanity.

It is a song of repentance. David is expressing, with strong language, the anguish of his guilt.

Notice the personal pronouns used:

blot out my transgressions

Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity

cleanse me from my sin

For I know my transgressions

my sin is ever before me

Against you, you only, have I sinned

It is obvious that David is accepting full responsibility for his actions. He is not attempting to pass his sin off on a pre-existing condition.

Also notice the wording of verse 5

David is utilizing "hyperbole" - a standard poetic practice of exaggerating a statement. The purpose is to express intense emotions, or to make a strong empression upon the reader, and should not be taken literally.

A common American hyperbole is "I'm so hungry, I could eat a horse".

David again uses this technique in verse 7:

Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;

wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Surely David isn't creating a doctrine of cleansing from sin in this statement.

Neither is he making a doctrinal statement of inherited sin nature.

Some people have even proposed the ridiculous notion that the "sin nature" is passed down from the father through his sperm.

Wouldn't an "inherited sin nature" make sin a physical problem?

If that's the case, Jesus died in vain.

FYI. I'm a Christian who finds the whole concept of "original sin", or born sinful, etc. to be fully un-biblical and a heretical teaching that has no place in the Bible.

Wife and I are thinking of taking a 3-day mini vacation in Portland in mid August. Is a rental car really necessary? Is it reasonable to get around by taxi or public transit?

The most stupid answer be chosen the winner.

The New Testament does not subscribe to Original Sin. That doctrine was invented by Augustine of Hippo in the 5th century in an attempt to refute the Pelagian heresy.

It lay mostly dormant for several centuries until it was re-worked by Anselm in the 11th century, and found its way into Medieval philosophy. From there, it became an accepted dogma in Roman Catholic circles, and was eventually handed down to the Protestants.

It is completely unknown among the indigenous Christian churches of Greece, the Balkans, Asia Minor, Africa, Eastern Europe, Russia, the Middle East, Iraq, Iran, and India.

Romans 5:12 tells us that sin came into the world when Adam disobeyed God.

The result of that sin was spiritual death - separation from God.

The verse goes on to tell us that everyone since then has also sinned.

It does not say that we inherited sin from Adam. That's an assumption that is forced into the text.

In John 3:7 Jesus said "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." In other words - when we are born, we aren't spiritual.

Without a spiritual connection to God, we follow the impulses of our bodies. We do what feels good.

There is nothing inherently sinful about our emotions or bodily pleasures. Sin is a commitment to what pleases us without regard to God's will.

Since we begin at birth to do what comes naturally - fulfilling our physical needs - we learn to commit ourselves to our own pleasure. As we grow and begin to become aware that there is something called "right and wrong", that's when we become aware that we have been seeking self-fulfillment instead of God's honor.

That's when we face temptation.

James 2:14-15 says "each one is tempted when, by his own desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."

Notice that the temptation comes first. It leads to sin, and sin results in death.

We do not begin with a sin nature.

The New Testament does not subscribe to Original Sin. That doctrine was invented by Augustine of Hippo in the 5th century in an attempt to refute the Pelagian heresy.

It lay mostly dormant for several centuries until it was re-worked by Anselm in the 11th century, and found its way into Medieval philosophy. From there, it became an accepted dogma in Roman Catholic circles, and was eventually handed down to the Protestants.

It is completely unknown among the indigenous Christian churches of Greece, the Balkans, Asia Minor, Africa, Eastern Europe, Russia, the Middle East, Iraq, Iran, and India.

Romans 5:12 tells us that sin came into the world when Adam disobeyed God.

The result of that sin was spiritual death - separation from God.

The verse goes on to tell us that everyone since then has also sinned.

It does not say that we inherited sin from Adam. That's an assumption that is forced into the text.

In John 3:7 Jesus said "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." In other words - when we are born, we aren't spiritual.

Without a spiritual connection to God, we follow the impulses of our bodies. We do what feels good.

There is nothing inherently sinful about our emotions or bodily pleasures. Sin is a commitment to what pleases us without regard to God's will.

Since we begin at birth to do what comes naturally - fulfilling our physical needs - we learn to commit ourselves to our own pleasure. As we grow and begin to become aware that there is something called "right and wrong", that's when we become aware that we have been seeking self-fulfillment instead of God's honor.

That's when we face temptation.

James 2:14-15 says "each one is tempted when, by his own desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."

Notice that the temptation comes first. It leads to sin, and sin results in death.

We do not begin with a sin nature.

Ezekiel 18:19-20; "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him".

This year is the 25th festival.

300 bands, sports, discussion workshops, etc.

June 30-July 5

http://www.cornerstonefestival.com/

It comes out April 18

I'm looking forward to seeing it.

http://www.expelledthemovie.com/

Original Sin is not a Biblical concept. It was invented by Augustine about 400 years after Christ.

Romans 5:12 tells us that sin came into the world when Adam disobeyed God.

The result of that sin was spiritual death - separation from God.

The verse goes on to tell us that everyone since then has also sinned.

It does not say that we inherited sin from Adam. That's an assumption that is forced into the text.

In John 3:7 Jesus said "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." In other words - when we are born, we aren't spiritual.

Without a spiritual connection to God, we follow the impulses of our bodies. We do what feels good.

There is nothing inherently sinful about our emotions or bodily pleasures. Sin is a commitment to what pleases us without regard to God's will.

Since we begin at birth to do what comes naturally - fulfilling our physical needs - we learn to commit ourselves to our own pleasure. As we grow and begin to become aware that there is something called "right and wrong", that's when we become aware that we have been seeking self-fulfillment instead of God's honor.

That's when we face temptation.

James 2:14-15 says "each one is tempted when, by his own desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."

Notice that the temptation comes first. It leads to sin, and sin results in death.

We do not begin with a sin nature.

Ezekiel 18:19-20; "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him".

Another passage that is often misquoted and abused is Psalm 51:5. This passage does not teach, as many falsely claim, that all mankind is born sinful.

It is David's poetic lament over his own sin, and is not to be taken literally.

Even if taken literally, it refers to the sinful state of David's mother.

Conversations I've had with Calvinists lead me to conclude that Calvinism is a cult.

Here are some common charactersitics of cults:

1) Many cults promote the false idea that God has revealed something special to them

Some cults make no claim to new truth or extra‑biblical revelation, but believe they alone have the key to interpreting the mysteries in the Bible

2) The Bible is then reinterpreted, usually out of context, to justify the peculiar doctrines of the cult

3) Cults often appeal to authorities outside of the Bible to reinforce their claims

All of these also apply to Calvinists.

So - is it a cult? Or just heretical teachings?

Some people claim that we all inherit sin (though the bible doesn't say that).

If sin is inherited, wouldn't it have to be genetic. And if it's genetic, couldn't it be cured, or treated genetically?

If it's genetic, why did Jesus have to die, when He could have just cured averyone?

a) for Hillary

b) for Obama

c) for McCain

I thoght we had already gone down this road.

JFK - Can a Catholic be President?

Romney - How can a Momon be President?

Huckabee - A Fundamentalist?!

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What does the 1st Amendment say about religion and state?

Larry Norman passed away yesterday morning. What kind of an impact did he have on your life? http://www.larrynorman.com/