What freedoms will you lose if Obama's healthcare plan is passed?

People currently have little choice in what sort of health insurance they will have. Their employer chooses for them or they choose the best plan they can afford. The plan will not restrict your choice of doctors.

What exactly is your problem with the bill?

And an extra challenge: Try using concrete terms. Try not to use right-wing ideology. Try to use language that a moderate or perhaps even a liberal will find reasonable.

2009-09-17T23:45:11Z

Being required to have something that you know you should have isn't an infringement at all. It is irresponsible and hurtful to your fellow Americans to not have health insurance. The rest of us have to take up the slack for those without health insurance when they join insurance plans or end up on disability.

2009-09-17T23:50:16Z

We do not lose substantive freedom when private companies go under (after all free-markets make companies go under all the time). To the extent that a government enterprise can provide a commodity, indistinguishable from the privately produced commodity, we actually gain freedom.

2009-09-17T23:52:17Z

"Being required to have something that you know you should have isn't an infringement at all."

Something you should do in order to avoid harming others. You harm others when you are not well and cost the country and your risk pool members extra money. We are forced to avoid harming other people in many ways, most of which seem justifiable.

2009-09-17T23:54:22Z

Individual freedom is limited when one is not well. Everyone agrees to begin with that barring substantial losses of freedom everyone should be well. Healthcare should be a commodity that there is enough of. Thus, scarcity pricing becomes less important. The fact that there is not enough healthcare to go around is merely evidence of a gross market failure.

2009-09-17T23:58:51Z

The scarcity of doctors is not an argument against healthcare reform, but for healthcare reform. We need to train more doctors.

2009-09-18T00:01:58Z

Typo in one of the additions. Sorry.

I meant provide a commodity cheaper.

It should have read:

We do not lose substantive freedom when private companies go under (after all free-markets make companies go under all the time). To the extent that a government enterprise can provide a commodity CHEAPER, indistinguishable from the privately produced commodity, we actually gain freedom.

2009-09-18T00:03:57Z

By reducing the bulk of necessary base costs, making health insurance cheaper adds to our freedom.

2009-09-18T12:13:27Z

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Your objection to my justification of limiting individual liberty in cases of harm to others is actually kind of disturbing.

A widely accepted view is that harming others is the only justification for limiting liberty. Liberty is not your take home pay and the good stuff in the Constitution. Your liberty is being able to do all that a human could reasonably expect to be able to do in the context of his or her community. Your liberty does not imply that you get to keep everything you make. No one believes that taxes for defense or taxes for the police department are infringements on liberty (I recognize that some people believe this, but let's concern ourselves with reality). These taxes are inherently redistributive. Your house isn't burglarized at the same rate as all the other houses. If you live in Kansas, why would you care to help build coastal fortification?

2009-09-18T12:20:16Z

But, lessening your take home pay is justified in the same way for health care as it is for defense. Harm would probably come to us, if we didn't have the military. Harm does befall members of peoples risk pools. Harm befalls the economy when people are not working. [Ex: I am not as rich because my neighbor is dying of cancer because he didn't health insurance and didn't get it diagnosed early.] Harm befalls those who are made sick by those who are sick, but don't know how sick they are because they haven't been to the doctor.

Personal harm is not a good justification for infringing liberty. Only harm to others. [A lot of liberals will give you a justification from morality that we should help the underinsured. I think we simply be better off if we did, and that is the best argument for me.] That is why the list of things that yall made that we could ban are irrelevant. You can bust ear drums, but it is illegal to play loud music in my neighborhood, see?

vote_usa_first2009-09-17T23:41:34Z

Favorite Answer

*Here is a classical liberal view

1) You will legally be required to have health insurance - like car insurance. Imagine a police officer asking to see your proof of health insurance with your car insurance. Or perhaps a new national id containing information of both.

2) Private companies can not compete with government, government can tax you with threat of fine, imprisonment, or swat teams. private companies can not do this.

3) Government does not care about losses. They simple 'charge the people' via debt. Efficiency is NOT rewarded, inefficiency is awarded with a higher budget. The is the exact opposite of the free market.

4) Free markets regulate scarce resources with prices. If resources are low, prices go higher, and a signal is sent to find cheaper method and invite new competition. Government lacks this mechanism.

5) Massive medical databases are dangerous. Government databases are always compromised. My medical data is private between by doctor and myself. Keeping that information on file in my home and the doctor office keeps it secure compared to putting it online, available to not only millions of government workers, but millions of hackers.

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"Being required to have something that you know you should have isn't an infringement at all."

You know you should have 8 hours of sleep. You know you should have healthy food. You know you should have a savings, and a good job, and a honest wife and kind, smart children. These are things you do voluntary.

Government FORCE is just that....FORCE. At the end, if you oppose governments force, and keep opposing, it has the power to murder you funded by your own stolen wealth.

Be consistent. Make a list of things that "you know you should have", which you would NOT want govenrment forcing. You will find many, and may rethink your reasoning.

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"We do not lose substantive freedom when private companies go under?"

If you are not involved with a company, you do not lose. I don't lose any freedom if your video store fails. What I do lose, is what government is willing to steal from me, with threat of violence, to fund your failed company.

Actually, if a private company fails, it frees up resources being wasted on that private company. It is an indicator of what works, and what doesn't. It is a indicator to new businesses and entrepreneurs and investors.

"[With a government run service] we actually gain freedom."

Impossible. Its failure or success is funded no matter what, with theft of wealth and threat of violence. It lacks any mechanism to regulate resource use and manage costs. It feeds off inefficiency. Read what I wrote earlier.

"You harm others when you are not well and cost the country and your risk pool members extra money."

While I agree we should not harm others - person or property - theoretical harm is another endless excuse for govenrment regulation. We could spend the rest of our lives coming up with tens of thousands of theoretical ways people could become unwell and harm others. Ban cheeseburgers. Ban cigarettes. Ban toothpicks which could cause gum penetration and infection. Ban loud music, which could burst eardrums. Ban bright LCD TVs which may harm ones eyes.

"Individual freedom is limited when one is not well."

Government limiting freedom is the ultimate crime. Because if you attempt to get it back, SWAT teams will be at your door. If a person attempts to take your freedom, government - its primary duty - will be your friend for once providing a court system to help resolve the problem.

"Healthcare should be a commodity that there is enough of."

I agree. Government has been deep in health care for 40 years. Its regulation prevents new doctors and new life saving medicines from ever reaching it to market. The FDA is a billion dollar gate keeper that benefits big Pharma - government protected monopolies.

"Thus, scarcity pricing becomes less important."

If there is no price gains when something becomes scarce, how do you know those scarce resources are going to who needs them most?

"evidence of a gross market failure."

Regulation of medical schools, clinics, hospitals, the FDA, are not part of a free market. If the industry was completely deregulated, we would have more affordable medical solutions than we could throw money at.

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"The scarcity of doctors is not an argument against healthcare reform, but for healthcare reform. We need to train more doctors."

I agree we need healthcare reform, but a different type.

First off, doctors wont magically appear with govenrment force funded health care. With the strict regulation on medical schools, and clinics, and hospitals, and the steep government insurance requirements on them, doctors wont fall out of the sky. Even the most minimal job in this environment requires massive government oversight. Perhaps there are dozens of hospital roles that a simple 12 hour class could teach someone....It is government forbidding that. It is government preventing affordable medical care.

Demand is always up there for doctors, it is government who has prevented that demand from being filled.

"making health insurance cheaper adds to our freedom."
I don't know if it adds to freedom, but lower costs for the citizens are a great idea. However, costs aren't reduced if the expenses are simply shifted to monetary inflation and debt. The costs are switched over to a hidden format. Cost reduction and illusion are not the same thing.

If you are interested, read this short 4 point article about the type of medical reform I would support. It would lower prices, and lead to new medical solutions. All voluntary, none using force of law and threat of violence. http://mises.org/story/3643

Jerry O2009-09-18T00:16:46Z

Here are a few thoughts I have. Medicare and Medicaid are creations of our Congress, and the programs are funded and administered by our Government. Medicare is cited as the program a half trillion dollars can be drawn from to finance Public Insurance, or subsidies for the low income citizens. These funds are considered available because their expenditures are on waste. We are asked to accept that a Public Insurance program will be administered by the same Agencies and Bureaucrats administering Medicare. Logic dictates the same Government that apparently mismanaged Medicare will be administering Public Insurance. US general funds will be required to finance another half trillion, and we all know that comes from tax revenues, otherwise it will be deficit financed. Let's all keep in mind these dollar amounts are for the first 10 years of the program. Something that I haven't heard from any source, when the Administration talks about mandating insurance for everyone, the costs for coverage doesn't take in consideration of the working population also paying Medicare taxes from their paychecks each payday. This will mostly impact those of the 30 million who have no insurance at present. The threshold for subsidizing new insurance hasn't been determined, and in doing so, the Medicare tax has to be considered. Bottom line, costs of a Health care program are not presented honestly, perhaps because it is really not known. We need all questions answered, and that may be impossible with this President and this Congress.

em2009-09-18T00:14:31Z

"Being required to have something that you know you should have isn't an infringement at all."
Are you serious?!!!!!!!!
OK, let me use your brilliant logic!
There were (and are) many studies proving that areas (towns and counties) with heavy civilian gun ownership have severely less crime - robberies, carjacking, murders.
I say everyone should be required by law to own and be able to operate a gun.
If you don't and someone breaks into your house, your neighbor will have to pick up the slack. If he doesn't and your house gets robbed and/or someone in your house gets murdered, the value of all the houses in your neighborhood goes down.
So owning a gun is "Something you should do in order to avoid harming others."
Screw liberty, right? Just go buy gun and learn to use it or we'll tax you for non-compliance!!!!!!!

Anonymous2009-09-17T23:50:41Z

All the reasons mentioned by the 1st poster. So after 15-20 years you will essentially only have 1 choice due to unfair competition.

There is no way to fund it. The GAO agrees.

Previous performance of Medicare. There is massive fraud I mean insane amounts of fraud. Also its short funded by 50+ Trillion and will not have any money to operate in around 9 years.

The same thing will happen with this government plan. When medicare was sold to the public everything was "paid for" now its trillions in debt.

And quite frankly we dont need this massive plan. We can simply add a few regulations and make some tweaks to promote competition without reinventing the wheel.


>The amount of false statements I see in these answers is very troubling. People need to stop listening to FOX and Limbaugh and actually read the bill.

Name them.

Joel M2009-09-18T06:36:25Z

I will have the freedom to change insurance companies regardless of preexisting conditions. I will have the freedom to continue being insured even if I change jobs.

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