Rev 21:1, 2: Talks about the former / 1st heaven passing away. Is this heavens 1. the entire universe?2. the sky around the earth?
3. The spiritual heavens where God resides? 4. or something else?Extra point: What is the new heaven?1. a new universe?2. new sky around the planet?3 A new residence for God?4 or something else?
2021-03-07T15:51:36Z
Justin, an interesting idea. If I understand you, the 'former' is the physical universe and the new is our going to reside in the spiritual heavens?
Anonymous: If Jehovah has the power to create the universe, doesn't he also have the power to maintain the universe so the earth can remain forever?
(Ecclesiastes 1:4) “ 4 A generation is going, and a generation is coming, But the earth remains forever.”
2021-03-09T21:27:01Z
David, Thank you for your answer, I know you believe the earth is destroyed, but what about the 'heavens' that is destroyed.
But my questions is concerning the 'first heavens'.Is it the just the sky above, where the birds fly or the whole physical universe [heavens] or does it include the spiritual heavens?
2021-03-11T15:07:43Z
Thank you Rebmilc, you actually answered the question.
As usual though a simple '1 & 2' would have suffice.
2021-03-11T16:29:37Z
Reb, you might enjoy Matthew Henry's commentary of Isa 34:4.
2021-03-11T16:36:23Z
Reb you might also enjoy this reference of Isa 34:4,
Barnes' Notes Isa 34:4 "And all the host of heaven - On the word ' host' ( tsâbâ' ), see the note at Isaiah 1:9. The heavenly bodies often represent kings and princes (compare the note at Isaiah 24:21)."
2021-03-11T19:19:48Z
Just as you, there are things Matthew Henry said that we agree with and there are things we disagree with. You agree with his comments on the trinity, but disagree with him on Isa 34 as to what the "heavens" are.I agree with his comments as to Isa 34 and disagree with him on the trinity.To deny me your same attitude toward Matthew Henry's commentary is . . . ?This question isn't dealing with the trinity, but what heavens are destroyed?
2021-03-20T18:49:40Z
Reb you remind me of the scribes and pharisees of Jesus' day
17 saying: ‘We played the flute for you, but you did not dance; we wailed, but you did not beat yourselves in grief.’ 18 Likewise, John came neither eating nor drinking, but people say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of man did come eating and drinking, but people say, ‘Look! A man who is a glutton and is given to drinking wine, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’” (Matt11:17-19)
2021-03-20T18:51:04Z
You don't believe even your own scholars, and that is your right.
Yet you deny this right to Jehovah's Witnesses.
BJ2021-03-07T18:49:14Z
Favorite Answer
Jehovah promises to make all things new.
“A new heaven”: A new government that will establish righteous conditions on earth
“A new earth”: A society of people who submit to God’s rulership and live by his righteous standards
“All things new”: All physical, mental, and emotional suffering will be replaced by the joyous memories of each passing day
If Peter’s words are to be taken literally and the planet Earth is to be consumed by real fire, then the literal heavens the stars and the other heavenly bodies are also to be destroyed by fire.
This view, however, conflicts with the assurance found at such scriptures as Matthew 6:10: “Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth,” and Psalm 37:29: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.
The Bible often uses the term “earth” in a figurative sense. For example, Genesis 11:1 says: “Now all the earth continued to be of one language.” Here, the word “earth” refers to mankind in general, or human society.
2 Peter 3:5, 6 implies the same figurative use of earth. It refers to Noah’s day when a wicked human society was destroyed in the Flood but Noah and his household as well as the globe itself were preserved.Likewise.
At 2 Peter 3:7, it says that the ones to be destroyed are ungodly men. This view agrees with the rest of the Bible. The wicked society earmarked for desolation is also the former earth referred to at Revelation 21:1
Today, a society that is sexually depraved, violently brutal, and politically corrupt has polluted the earth. Jehovah promises to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.
The restored and renewed earth will be populated by people who fear God and sincerely love their fellowmen.
The changes that take place under God’s heavenly Kingdom will be so profound that the Bible speaks of “a new earth” a new human society.
They are the governments of this world. Just as the heavens are over the earth, the governments rule over people. The will be replaced by God’s kingdom ruling over the earth. See jw.org
Update 2. But my point is given your obsession with, and beliefs about the Trinity, should you really be consulting a trinitarian scholar? Isn’t that a tad hypocritical? Your organization would consider Matthew Henry as apostate for his belief in the Trinity. So, shouldn’t you follow the advice given in “Kingdom ministry 1/03 p.1” where it says: “It also calls for our shunning apostate material. Being alert to these and other tactics of Satan will help us to live up to our dedication." Here are a few quotes from JW’s on YA regarding the reading of other ‘spiritual’ material. “Why would I eat garbage from the dumpster when I can eat the finest of gourmet food that is nutritious and delicious?” “If Oliver knew what a good steak dinner tasted like, would he want to go back to gruel? .... Certainly not”. “many of us have been in other religions before becoming Jehovah's Witnesses. We've read all those before & have now rejected the Trinitarian ideals that those promote... so why would we take the time to reread such things?” Don’t you agree with those Brothers and sisters?
Update: Teem, I find myself surprised by your quoting of Matthew Henry. To become ordained as a Presbyterian Minister he had to present his confession of faith which he did on the 9th of May 1687. Confessions 1 and 6 should interest you: (1) I believe that the living and true God is but one. And that in the unity of the Godhead there is a trinity of persons, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and that these Three are but One God, the same in substance, equal in power, and glory. (6) I believe that God having from all eternity, of His mere good pleasure, elected a remnant of mankind to everlasting life, did, in infinite wisdom, find out a way to save and deliver them out of this sinful and miserable estate, and to bring them into a state of salvation; and that was by giving His only begotten Son to be their Redeemer, who being God, and one with the Father, according to the determinate counsel of God, did, in the fullness of time, take upon him, our nature, a true body, and reasonable soul, and became man, being conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, and called Jesus.
Would you agree with him on that too?
You may find the Keil and Delitzsch commentary to the OT interesting which states:
“The judgment foretold by Isaiah also belongs to the last things; for it takes place in connection with the simultaneous destruction of the present heaven and the present earth. "And all the host of the heavens moulder away, and the heavens are rolled up like a scroll, and all their host withers as a leaf withers away from the vine, and like withered leaves from the fig-tree" (Nâmaq, to be dissolved into powdered mother (Isaiah 3:24; Isaiah 5:24); nâgōl (for nâgal, like nâzōl in Isaiah 63:19; Isaiah 64:2, and nârōts in Ecclesiastes 12:6), to be rolled up - a term applied to the cylindrical book-scroll. The heaven, that is to say, the present system of the universe, breaks up into atoms, and is rolled up like a book that has been read through; and the stars fall down as a withered leaf falls from a vine, when it is moved by even the lightest breeze, or like the withered leaves shaken from the fig-tree. The expressions are so strong, that they cannot be understood in any other sense than as relating to the end of the world (Isaiah 65:17; Isaiah 66:22; compare Matthew 24:29).
In the opening line of Scripture, we see this verse “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). This raises the question, Are there multiple heavens? We need to go to the scriptures themselves to understand what we know now. Looking at (2 Corinthians 12:2) we find the following from Paul: “I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows”. Most Bible scholars agree that Paul is talking about himself. What he mentions here is the idea of a third heaven. If you are going to apply simple logic, if there is a third heaven, then there must also be a first and second one too. According to (Psalm 19:1) the psalmist states “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands”. In this context, the Psalmist is using the word heavens, but he is referring to the sky or the atmosphere around us. The glory of God is revealed in the skies and the clouds that we see. This could then be considered the first heaven. There is another example of this first heaven in the book of James. “Elijah was a human being, even as we are. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. Again, he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops” (James 5:17-18). If the Atmosphere and the sky are the first heaven, then we can logically consider the Galaxies and the stars as the second heaven. Although the Bible does not use this term, we can see this developed in (Psalm 8:3). “When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place…” If the first heaven can include what we can see, then the second heaven begins to go beyond what we can see. In Hebrews, we see a reference to the Lord Jesus Christ who passed through the heavens when he ascended. “Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.” The third heaven which Paul referred to in (2 Corinthians) is the place where God’s presence dwells, where his throne is. Here are two other mentions of this. “In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple” (Isaiah 6:1). “But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. ‘Look,’ he said, ‘I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God’” (Acts 7:55-56). These are all pictures and images of heaven where God reigns and rules. This is the heaven we typically think about when we think about the presence of God. Taking this one step further the Apostle Peter says, “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.” (2 Peter 3:10). And the prophet Isaiah says, “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, And the former things shall not be remembered or come to mind.” (Isaiah 65:17). This would all suggest that there will be a new heaven and a new earth. I would say in answer to your question that Revelation 21:1-2 is speaking about both the first and second heavens as we are told in (Isaiah 34:4) that. “All the stars of heaven will be dissolved. The skies will be rolled up like a scroll, and all their stars will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like foliage from the fig tree.” This portrays some sort of cosmic catastrophe i.e..’ Stars of Heaven’. I don’t believe that your passage refers to the third heaven where God dwells as this exists as a spiritual realm, a level of existence higher than and outside of the physical universe. (1 Kings 8:27), (John 6:38) These spiritual heavens are occupied by God Himself, who is “a Spirit,” as well as by the angelic spirit beings whom he created. (John 4:24; Matthew 24:36)
The “new heavens” is God’s heavenly Kingdom, which was established in the year 1914 when “the appointed times of the nations” ended. (Luke 21:24) The “new earth” refers to the new earthly society of humans who will have demonstrated their willing submission to God’s Kingdom. The spiritual paradise that God’s people enjoy even now will at last be in its rightful setting in that beautiful “inhabited earth to come.” (Heb. 2:5)