Sonny Liston: How much was he affected by the Muslim entourage of Muhammad Ali?

I think Sonny was more effected by his own entourage than with Ali's group. The guys who put the liniment on his gloves to try and blind Ali, or the unknown's who eventually injected him with an overdose to end his life were most likely not Black Muslims. No disrespect to anyone on either side of the fence, but Liston's underworld connections were long known, and real, his death highly questionable, the whole unfortunate matter one for law enforcement and the surviving family, not a topic fit for this forum.

I didn't see any Black Muslims in the ring with Ali and Liston (other than Ali himself), I don't think it was an issue at all. The Black Muslim movement benefited far more from Ali being a part of it than he ever benefited from it. Ali's membership was a hugh recruiting tool for that movement. But the movement itself did exactly what for Ali? Changed his name, but in Zaire, after defeating Forman, and regaining the title, Ali still quoted the bible. It is no accident that the Koran, Torah and Old Testiment are the same book, but when you have the time find out where "If God is with me, who can be against me" is at in those books.

Historically Ali was the greatest as much for his exploits outside the ring, as in it. With the possible exception of Dr. King, Ali was as hugh a part of the civil rights movement as any other single person. He beat Liston, and used the political platform the heavyweight championship provided to help a portion of the American public who were the victims of real institutionalized bigotry. Agree or disagree with the man's beliefs all you want but never trivalize such history, and the Black Muslim movement with Malcom X played a role in civil rights history, albeit less of one than Dr. King.

What amazes me most is that the fact that Dr. King helped a lot more White people than he ever did Blacks with the civil rights laws that time frame generated and this is never mentioned in any historical or racial debate.

It is the obligation of all responsibile men and women to oppose evil where they find it. These men did just that, as their time frame allowed in so much as they were able. In so doing they created a better world for all of us just by standing against the tyranny of their day. Such impact is greater than just a boxing question, but there it is. We need such character as much today and it was needed then.

Ali did more for the civil rights movement with his position on the Viet Nam war and his statement of never being called a

------- by a Veit Cong than actually enlisting could have done.

It was a time when the American public was facing serious threats, and we needed such leaders then almost as bad as we do today. Dr. King, Ali and Malcom X and many more stood for their beliefs in the face of tyranny, and right or wrong, in so doing they benefited all of mankind, not just the groups they associated with. The outcome of a boxing match was a small thing in the face of such social turmoil.

Today we face a form of tyranny that is stripping those very civil rights away from "us", the American public, and we have no such leaders to step up and challenge the politicians who are destroying America this time around. The neocon run Bush administration with their "Patriot Act" all but repealed the civil rights laws men such and King and Kennedy fought and died to achieve. With the stroke of an ink pen they destroyed two thrids of the "Bill of Rights" while New York crawled out from under 9/11. We do nothing, but play into the same bigotry that has crippled this country since it's inception, and they use our fear and division to try and monopolize the world's oil.

It's not a Racial or Religious problem, Democratic vs Republican or a conservative vs liberal problem. It's an American problem. I wish we had a small portion of the character those before us showed, God knows we sure need it. The United States of America is at war as I write this, but we are not at war with fundalmentalist Muslims, our enemy is far more insidious and patient, but even such as this passes.

Your question hit a nerve, please forgive the length of this answer, you asked for some facts, so I gave them to you.

Dr. King said it best, "I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word in reality. That is why 'right', temoparily defeated, is stronger than 'evil' triumphant."

Keith this is a really interesting question. Sonny Liston of course looked to be unbeatable particularly after knocking Patterson out twice and being a big, mean, and intimidating fighter. He was also a very good boxer with an excellent jab. When Ali came along with all his boastfulness I think it really took Sonny by surprise and worked on him mentally which was a tactic that Ali used throughout his career without a doubt. The Muslim entourage may have also affected Sonny as I have heard that there were some threats made before he fought Ali. I believe that this affected his performance greatly and this is not intended to take anything away from Ali who is one of the all time greatest but it did appear that Sonny gave less than his all against Ali.

Both fights are monumental upsets. You have to consider a few things. There is the "before" and "after", for each fight. Before the Liston fight, few had any reason to believe that Ali had a chance. After the fight, it was a shock that the man, who crushed the beloved Floyd Patterson, could be so easily dominated by this young, brash loud mouthed fighter. It's easy to compare "Numbers". Just look at Tyson-Douglas. The "49 to 1" odds seem staggering. But what people don't understand is that 49-1, in 1990 is about the same as "8-1" in 1964, because of the difference in TV and Cable audiences. One must also take into consideration the near double population in 1990. More people watch. More people bet., thus the higher "numbers". But is the magnitude greater? THAT is the question. Another perspective is that, because Ali didn't fight in the traditional heavyweight mode, many people figured he'd be finished off early. No one had ever seen a heavyweight fight that way. It was easy to think that Ali would lose to ANY "good" heavyweight. Will power, and other "intangibles" were not taken into great consideration, during those times. With heavyweights, it was rare that the favored fighter lost. With the Forman fight, you have a more modern version of Sonny Liston, or so it seemed. This fighter not only has the power but he has no losses and it seems he has no weaknesses. Add to that, people have now already seen the best of Ali. It was clear that Ali was past his prime. He had clearly lost that which made him great in the first place. We had yet to see how Ali would cope without his gifted foot work. Add to this, there was evidence that Ali would have his hands full. Two of boxing's toughest competitors each held a victory over Ali. It was widely believed that neither Frazier nor Norton would have beaten a prime Ali. That fact that each did beat him was proof that he's past his prime. Now, along comes a bigger, more modern version of the fighter in the mode of Sonny Liston. This fighter totally destroys both fighters, which whom Ali has gone to the brink. These tough men are both finished in devastating fashion, in just two rounds each. There is a type of mystique about the classic 2nd round knockout. A first round KO is usually a quick, one-sided destruction. However, the loser suffers little damage because it's over quickly. With a 2nd round KO, in most cases-unless it's just one punch that finishes it, there is usually a degree of punishment and the loser is simply beaten down. Frazier wasn't finshed with one punch. He was "Beaten up" than destroyed. Norton was beaten silly, then destroyed. How is Ali, past his prime, having lost to both Forman victims, supposed to deal with Big George. George Forman IS Power. People were actually speaking as if Ali might not come out alive. I can still remember such discussions. I lived among a large group of Ali fans and NO ONE spoke a word until the results were known. Given this, I'd have to give the edge to Ali-Forman, in terms of the magnitude of the upset.

Sonny Liston was afraid... not of Ali and not of his Muslim entourage, but of the underworld gambling bosses who made him an offer he couldn't refuse to lose to Ali.... twice. The problem was that Sonny was a great boxer/fighter but a lousy actor.... and he wasn't real smart... that proved to be a deadly combination when Sonny went down for the count at the age of 38 from an overdose of heroin. This when he was deathly afraid of needles..ha. When Tyson knocked out several opponents in under 2 minutes it was obviously real, but when did Ali ever knock any opponent out in less than 2 minutes? Never that's when! Because he didn't knock out Liston. Liston took a dive and that's the only Ali fight ever to end in the first 2 minutes. Also George Chuvalo, Floyd Patterson, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Joe Louis your's truly the Ringgeneral all said it was phony. This was pure business and Sonny was a bad actor... end of story.

I wouldn't be skocked if some members of the nation of Islam put a scare into Sonny, i too have heard stories of this, but I doubt it costed him he fights. The reason ali won those fights is because he is one of the top 3 heavyweights ever, no question. I also agree with you that Liston is very underrated, likely a one of he 10 best of all time. He likely would have gone down as a top 5 for clear cut top 10 if it weren't for a young loudmouth from louisville that went around calling himself the greatest of all time.

Liston got old, got beat by a quality fighter. The others he had fought were Palokas. Muslim Effect? I was a teen back then and since then I have never heard of such a thing. If anything, Liston threw the fight. He was a hood from way back. No one took the Muslims seriously back then. Very few people do now.

Very much. He was more affected by being old, injury prone, and in the ring with a much better heavyweight.