How high do gas prices have to go?

I've never seen anyone do a cost-benefit analysis for a v4 vs v6 vs diesel engine, so why do one for a hybrid drivetrain? Don't forget to include federal and any state tax incentives in your calculation (Consumer Reports forgot, and had to issue a retraction that hybrids are cheaper to own/operate than their gasoline cousins). Edmunds.com still doesn't take into account the true depreciation value (as seen by manually looking for a Prius trade-in value) when calculating their TCO, but they still say that hybrids will pay for themselves even when using their lower than actual trade-in amounts: http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/08/22/bc.autos.hybri...

Hybrids do cost less in the long term (lower total cost of ownership) than their conventional counterparts. (Intellichoice used a 5 year ownership comparison in 2006) See:

http://www.intellichoice.com/press/Hybrid-Survey-2...

http://www.intellichoice.com/carBuying101/HypeOver...

While Consumer Reports in 2006 only found the Toyota Prius and the Honda Civic Hybrid would pay off within the same 5 year frame. The Honda Accord Hybrid, the Ford Escape Hybrid, the Lexus RX400h, and the Toyota Highlander Hybrid were also studied.

(I'll note that there was a mathematical error in the initial publication of Consumer Reports' hybrid vehicle cost analysis, which a retraction was published later...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11637968/ )

Since this publication, many more hybrid models have become available, so I can't use this to say about hybrids "in general."

The problem is that not all hybrids are created equal. There are different hybrid technologies, depending on manufacturer. Even among the same manufacturer, you can find one model tuned for performance (greater power and acceleration than their gasoline-only counterparts) with only a slight fuel efficiency improvement, compared to another tuned for fuel efficiency and low emissions. (See the Honda Accord Hybrid vs. Honda Civic Hybrid, or the Lexus models compared to their sister Toyota models...)

There is more to vehicle ownership besides initial purchase cost and the amount of gasoline used - there is also the costs to maintain and insure it, and also depreciation costs.

However, the societal costs for emissions are not usually included. The hybrids tend to be at worst an ULEV, with many an AT-PZEV. Some are only sold in CA-emissions states. (Compare that to the often suggested VW TDI diesels, which cannot be sold new in CA-emission states because of their poor emissions.) In the US, hybrid models tend to be the best in fuel economy in their respective classes, using the same testing procedure to compare all cars: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/best/bestworstNF.sh... , http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicle/

The hybrid batteries in the currently available hybrid vehicles are usually listed by the manufacturer to last the lifetime of the vehicle, and have long warranties (not pro-rated!, usually 8 years/80,000 miles to 10 years/150,000 miles) to cover it. So far, hybrid battery replacements are VERY uncommon, and rarely out of warranty. Pricing is much better when buying a used unit from a wrecked vehicle (much less than $1000), and not paying dealer-inflated rates/labor prices.

As for the batteries themselves:

The lead-acid (Pb-A) 12v accessory batteries in hybrids tend to be smaller than those found in every traditional gasoline vehicle. Recycling programs are in place for traditional lead-acid batteries.

All the hybrids on the market use NiMH (Nickel-Metal Hydride) batteries, which contain no heavy metals (so they're not hazardous waste, like the Pb-A batteries), and are easily recycled. Often they'll have labels on the packs themselves listing who to contact to recycle them, and often there's a nice cash bounty reward as well.

Usually the mythic "article" from The Mail on the nickel in the hybrid cars' NiMH batteries is quoted from a now retracted article. The retraction that clears up this bit of misinformation is at: http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/...

Size of the vehicle shouldn't be an issue. (A good friend of mine is about 6'9" and bought a Prius because it's one of the few cars he can fit into.) There are hybrid options available for many cars/trucks today, and more models are getting the option all the time, so you should be able to find one that fits both you and your budget. Available US hybrids:

Toyota Prius, Camry, Highlander

Lexus: RX, GS, LS

Ford Escape, Mercury Mariner, Mazda Tribute

Honda Civic, Insight (retired model), Accord (retired model)

Nissan Altima

Chevrolet Malibu, Silverado, Tahoe (soon to be released)

GMC Sierra, Yukon (soon to be released)

Saturn VUE, Aura

(now if only Toyota would bring over to the US either of their hybrid minivans (Estima and Alphard) that are available in Japan...)

NONE of the currently commercially available hybrids have the ability to plug into an electrical outlet. The only source of power is conventional gasoline. The gasoline engine provides power to the hybrid battery through one of the electric motors acting as a generator. Some of the lost kinetic energy in braking is recaptured through regenerative braking (wheels spin a generator, slowing down the vehicle), which also reduces wear on the conventional brake pads.

There are no commercially-available plug-in hybrids on the market so far, unfortunately. Some hobbiests and aftermarket companies have been altering a few hybrids (Prius, Ford Escape Hybrid/Mercury Mariner Hybrid) to make them plug-in capable. Typically this requires adding additional hybrid batteries, besides the ability to charge off the mains.

For more information, check out http://www.calcars.org/vehicles.html

(I'll note that some of the manufacturers are looking into having a plug-in hybrid available in the future (2010 or so), such as the Toyota Prius and the Chevy Volt.)

To note, converting to a PHEV (plug-in hybrid electric vehicle) does not reduce the vehicle's range. It gives the owner the option to recharge the (newly added larger) hybrid battery pack at night (cheap electricity and off-peak electric load which would otherwise be lost). The vehicle would run for a certain distance (longer than stock) on the stored electric power alone, and when the battery pack is depleted to a certain point the vehicle reverts back to its original hybrid self and runs on a combination of the gasoline engine (which will also recharge the battery) and the electric motor. A PHEV would add a greater all-electric range to the existing hybrid, besides the ability (but not the requirement!) to plug it into an electric source.

Depending on the source for electricity in your area, a BEV (battery electric vehicle) may or may not put out more greenhouse gas emissions than a 55MPG HEV (hybrid electric vehicle). Mainly, if the primary source for electricity in your area is coal, your HEV is cleaner than a BEV running on coal-powered electricity. However, if your electricity source is natural gas, the BEV is usually cleaner than the HEV (depending on the method used for natural gas->electricity conversion), and it gets even better for the BEV if you are using a hydroelectric or other renewable electric source. In comparisons with a generic 17MPG SUV, an average 26MPG vehicle, and a high-efficiency 38MPG vehicle, the 38MPG vehicle still will beat the coal-powered BEV, but isn't as clean as the HEV (and gas and renewables powered BEVs are much better than the 38MPG vehicle).

see: "Battery-Powered Electric and Hybrid Electric Vehicle Projects to Reduce Greenhouse Gas Emissions: A Resource Guide for Project Development," July 2002

http://www.netl.doe.gov/products/ccps/pubs/resguid...

http://www.eere.energy.gov/cleancities/internation...

mainly section 4.3

(and that's besides the arguements that it's easier to manage emissions from a handful of electric plants, as opposed to millions of independently-owned cars... typically, electric charging rates (especially the off-peak charging times which would use otherwise lost power and level the loads) are still cheaper than petroleum rates, too. Of course, there are still emissions to worry about other than just greenhouse gas emissions, too.)

and yes, about 50% of the US' electric energy generation is from coal, but your local mix may be different: http://www.eia.doe.gov/fuelelectric.html

To answer the original question, I bought my first US hybrid, back when gasoline prices were still $0.99/gallon. And it was a good deal then, and still is. Only sedan available at the time with SULEV emissions, and MPG over 40, and it was within my budget and fun to drive to boot. http://www.kluge.net/~felicity/prius.php

Probably lol , it just depends which reason they give us this time for it.Before it was since the price of oil going up.Now their saying price of oil, is only a small effect.Then it was the hurricanes which i can understand.Then it was for changing the blends from winter to summer and the reverse for later in the year.And on a site i was reading they also said that, opec was purposly lowering production by like 1 million barrels a day.Which would then drive up demand.(So they are paying fewer people to work, yet getting tripple the profit back it not more.)That would not, make anyone want to increase demand.They also use the scarce tactic, where they think they are going to have a shortage so they jack up prices more anyways.And each year they keep rasing it,and rasing it So from is seams like no one really knows, you will hear about one thing then a week later, the price drives up and theres no explination.The U.S has a oil reserve with millions and if not more filled with oil.And they are contantly finding new places with tons of oil,just seams like opec just wants to make money. The government should some how, put a cap on the % they can make (opec,marathon,bp ect) as profit,because its pretty much a monopoly.I dont see why giving them more money because its somewhat low, helps with this so called :shortage".Some think it has to do something with pres. Bush, but im not sure could be possible, but im not going there.But I will say venezeula has oil but because their president(Chavez) hates Bush,so they refuse to do any business.Good Luck on finding out the real answer, i think it would pi** alot of people off, if we ever really found out.Bottom line, someones getting rich at the expence of others,on a neccesity and many which cannot afford it.Like i said, OPEC and the larger gas station companies are a monopoly in theirselfs.Because we have no other source and they have us by the balls, whatever they say, goes.

I would have to say, that if the gas price reached a 6.00 per gallon then it would effect most middle class homes. But it would have to go as high as 10 to 20.00 per gallon before the rich would have a gripe about it.

Choosing a hybrid with most folks is not the price, but the horse power they are getting rid of.

I myself drive as little as possible, and will consider a hybrid soon, the price of the gas to me is high enough already.

Gas prices when I was in France last year were approx. $6/gal. (I converted Euros and liters) and I didn't see many hybrids on the road. I did notice I could drive approx. 4 times the distance in my rental car before a fill up so the vehicles there are obviously much more fuel efficent than we we are allowing the american car makers to get by with.

I WAS going to buy a Prius, as I do a lot of running around on business, sometimes 400 or 500 miles in a day, but decided against it because people would think I'm a tree hugger.

CAN'T allow THAT to happen!

Seriously, I quit worrying about gas prices after they went above .40 cents a gallon. It's life in the city.

My Camry is good for 32 MPG. That's good enough for me.

I would not consider a hybrid as I do mostly highway driving so the gas mileage would be not that better for me. I get good gas mileage on the car I now have.

Hybrids are a waste of money. Buy a Nissan with CVT (continuously variable transmission) and get hybrid-like mpg without the hybrid cost or environmental concerns of battery disposal.

Or buy a new diesel, they're almost as clean as hybrids, have gobs of power and run forever.

if you think how much energy it takes to power hybrid vehicles, it's really not that much more economical. the initial purchase price, hydro-electric & nuclear power plants that have to supply the energy that the vehicle conumes. are we really saving anything on earth because we don't smell the exhaust? what about the fish that have to swim up hydro-electric ladders to get past the dams? what about about the frogs and so many other species born with abnormalities because nuclear waste water. it takes twice as much energy to save fuel with these vehicles, with more hybrid vehicles on the road, gas prices will only climb higher. because the oil companies have to make there billions each year no matter how many people are purchasing gas.

The opportunity cost of the gasoline has to exceed the extra cost of the hybrid.

seriously the price of the car itself would have to come way down before i would consider buying one. and they are so small it would hard for me to even get in one as i am over 6 feet tall

hybrid will get here some day...right now they are jokes...i guess gas will get to 10 a gallon...then maybe we will get hybrids....