If somebody is only looking for a pet, why should they choose a breeder that breeds for conformation?

Because if you are buying a purebred dog, I would assume that it's because you like the particular characteristics of that breed. You are wanting a dog that looks and acts in a certain way. Otherwise a mutt would do.

The conformation breeders are generally dedicated to ensuring that their puppies DO have those traits you are looking for. They have the knowledge, they have the experience (or the support system from other breeders), and because their dogs are shown you know that they are getting an outside opinion of their dogs.

It's very easy to think "my dogs are good enough". Showing them is a "reality check".

Far too often I've met owners with pet shop or BYB bassets. They look at their dog, they look at my dog, and they want to know why they look so different. Or if they have a puppy or young dog, they want to know when it will look like mine. Not that they don't love their dog, but mine is what they had in mind when they decided to get a Basset Hound.

In grooming, I see lots of hairy little dogs, some claiming to be Shih Tzus, some claiming to be Lhasa Apsos, or whatever. Very few of them are actually definitely recognizable as the breed they're supposed to be. Again, if you want a Shih Tzu, surely you want those characteristics that make the breed unique, otherwise any hairy little dog would do.

I think as long as the animal is healthy, has a sound, stable temperament and the characteristics the person wants, the source is less important. Someone might find that in the pound, or from a rescue, or from a breeder.

Even those that are breeding for conformation produce a fair number of pet animals, and that's an opportunity to get a really good dog that may only have some minor thing that would disqualify them in the ring, such as tail carriage, nose color, or something cosmetic like that.

What you should look for in any breeder is sound animals, with the documentation to back it up, clean, well-maintained animals and environment, a willingness to answer questions, a tendency to ask as many questions of you, a reasonable health guarantee that spells out the specifics of what is and is not covered, and a willingness to take the dog back at any point in its life, for any reason.

Of course, if nobody got a dog from a breeder, and there were no breeders, pretty soon there wouldn't be dogs at all, which is what the ARists want, isn't it?

The reason I think someone should still look for a reputable breeders is because owning a dog is a lifetime commitment so people looking for their next puppy should get the healthiest and temperamentally sound dog possible, just about every breed has some kind of genetic problem that reputable, knowledgeable breeders work to eliminate.

They also understand how important socialization is to their puppies' temperament. They make sure puppies have been handled from birth by all types of people and they expose them to new things daily, which means the puppies will be well balanced and happy.

Sick and temperamentally unbalanced dogs most often come from BYB or puppymills. BYB are usually ignorant of the potential for congenital problems and do not realize the importance of socialization, puppymills just do not care. The puppy buyers from these type of places usually end up with sick dogs that are either afraid of everything or that are very aggressive.

The dog you buy may be nothing more than a pet but recent titles on both sides of a pedigree are the sign of a breeder who's making a good-faith effort to produce healthy dogs that conform to the breed standard.

BYBs may be easier to find but why start out with a puppy that may have eventually have health and/or temperament problems that most certainly can be avoided by going to reputable breeders that strive to produce the healthiest and balanced puppies?

Because the show breeder is more likely to have their dogs checked out for the health defects common in their breed. Increases the likelihood that the puppy will not suffer from those defects. Just because a dog comes from champion parents doesn't mean it can't be a great pet. Not to mention the fact that if you do your research and get involved with a show breeder who is a true advocate of the breed, you get a great "how to" manual along with the puppy in the form of the breeder. The breeder is only a phone call away and can give you advice and help with training issues, or any other questions that come up about your dog. Few backyard breeders are so dedicated.

Edit--Greekman, I gotta disagree with you. There are show breeders out there whose dogs are also their pets. And I don't believe it's all that uncommon. One of the top malamute breeders that I know, consistently produces winning dogs, that are also sound in mind. Her dogs live in her home as house pets. As with anything else, you just need to do your research. I've also seen dogs of "working" lines...in this case they were schutzhund dogs. Some were great. Mentally stable, right on, great dogs. Others....they just gave me the willies because you could tell by their demeanor that there was a fine line they were treading, and eventually someone was gonna get nailed. Or how about the true "working" terriers? A lot of those have a personality not suited to being a fru fru house dog. So it goes either way.

I know from all my experiences that Conformation is but one aspect to look for if your looking for a pup who may be a show prospect but if the pup doesn't have the mental stability to go along with it's looks and pedigree then I haven't done my job very well.

I think most responsible breeders who do breed looking for a show prospect are very luck if they get 1 or 2 pups from a litter who fit this criteria! The "Look" is but one thing a good breed is aiming for! Health, soundness of the pups and mental stability also go along with the "Look".

If I'm paying the big buck for a pup then i want one that has been health checked , the parents too, temperament tested and a guarantee of this things written down and documented.

Like I said not all the pups in a litter will fit the bill. The other pups should be further examined to see where they may fit into the prospective buyer's life.

Some may show a high working drive, some not, It is this reason that breeders do good background checks of their clients to help place the remaining pups to the proper homes.

I seriously doubt that a BYB would even care about any of these things. This is why so many people get mismatched with a pup and then have so many problems!

ADD: Greekman the show vs working dog people will always disagree on what to look for! Their goals are so different. It is the wise person who knows exactly what they want in a dog who goes out and really looks for the dogs to suit their needs!

I know that a "most" pretty/show Golden's will not cut it if it was purchased as a hunting dog/companion dog!

If I was looking for only a pet, I would still want that pet to have the temperament and traits of the breed that it is. I would not necessarily need to have the most beautiful dog on the planet, and I really could care less if the dog is show quality. I do, however, care if it is healthy and free of genetic faults, so my dog can live a healthy life with me.

A working dog breeder may not be into what the dog looks like, but will certainly be concerned about the traits and temperament in addition to general health.

A byb couldnt care less or has no clue that these things are even important, so even if I was only looking for a pet, I would still never touch a byb dog.

If I needed, say, a herding dog, I would be out west looking for a working dog breeder who works mom and dad and they are both proven in their ability to do the job. These people are not bybs, they are working dog breeders.

There is still a huge difference between a reputable breeder and a byb.

Speaking as a geneticist rather than a dog fanatic, I would not go for a dog that was being selected against a notional breed standard. Selection in this way leads to exaggerated traits, which have knock-on effects elsewhere and reduces the genetic variability across the whole genome, which is not good for longevity and health. Genetic testing is all very well, but you can only test for one or two known conditions and these tell you nothing about health in other areas.

The ideal scenario for buying a pure-bred dog would be from a breeder who was selecting for good health, but at the very least they should provide accurate pedigrees which can be confirmed demonstrating that the parents are unrelated (for several generations) and even better they should not be too young, so that you have some evidence that they have stayed in good health and condition beyond their early years.

If I were doing my own genetic testing then I would do a genome-wide analysis to estimate the genetic variability in the animal as a whole and not accept one that was very low and therefore showing signs of inbreeding.

All this is probably impossible. If you get a dog from a one-off breeder, then if the parents were not related, you have a as good a chance of getting a good healthy animal as from any other source. It depends on the breed and the luck of the genes.

Well you already answered your question!

*If* I buy again, I will only buy from a conformation/working breeder (since applicable).

-I will have a general knowledge of the pedigree and health of the dogs in previous generations. I'll know what to expect and watch out for.

-I will have a general idea of how the dog will behave. Temperament is at least 50% genetic. You can always change a temperament through training... although it's harder to fix a poor temperament than it is to screw up a good one... but you will have an idea of what the dog is going to be like personality wise and can decide what kind of training/home is appropriate for the dog.

-I will have a general idea of what the dog will look like. Of course, you can always get some screwball that comes out of nowhere, but it's pretty infrequent. Well bred dogs look like what they're SUPPOSED to. The puppies that go to pet homes usually have ridiculous "flaws" that nobody other than the breeder will notice.

-I will have lifetime support from the breeder. If something genetic comes up, I will be covered by a guarantee. If something horrible happens, I won't have to take my dog to a shelter. I can ask as many questions as needed and get knowledgeable answers. I will have someone to share my trials and triumphs with.

Who doesn't want a dog that looks like the one you see on dog shows? Why buy anything else? I sure know *I* would like to be able to say I hadn't gotten ripped of when I bought Amara... That I could say she's a champion bred show quality dog... too bad she's not. She's cost me a fortune since... She's still beautiful, but when I see what I could have gotten for the money.... grr

You can spend $500 on a byb dog and end up having to pay $5000 on hip replacements.... OR you can pay $1500 and never have to replace hips because the parents, grandparents and great grandparents were screened for dysplasia...

You can spend $500 on a byb dog and (in my breed, and many others) have it drop dead at 4 years old from Dilated Cardio Myopathy...OR you can spend the extra money on a dog who doesn't have it in their line because of testing and selective breeding, one you can be confident in.

I've been educated. I will embrace the advice and *if* I buy another dog... I'll pay what I have to to get a good quality dog that I won't have to pay extra for down the road. It's worth the cost up front!

Quality matters.

For now, I'll stick with my cheapo rescue and byb dogs I already own :)

I don't love them any less but they're freaking EXPENSIVE!

Ahhh, SOMEDAY!

ADD: I will also say, greekman and Shadows Melon are right. I didn't intentionally put my list in that order, but that's what matters to me. Health, Temperament, looks. My dream is to have a working quality doberman do well in the show ring... I can hope, but dogs that work in the real world and win in the ring are what I want.... Too often, that's not going to happen.

Shows were originally a way to ensure the standard. It's now a way to ensure the standard LOOK. A working dog pretty much HAS to conform to the standard because if they dont... they cant dow what they're supposed to. The emphasis on pretty is silly.

Of course, for companion breeds this doesn't apply. Toy and Non-sporting group dogs. IMO everything else should be able to do what it was bred to do. Many breeds I would buy a working dog from proven lines before a conformation dog. A combo would be my ideal.

It is the backyard breeders and the puppy mills that are ruining the breeds. The AKC is offering more working titles all the time so that the QUALITY breeders can show off their dogs' abilities. Sporting breeds, terriers and herding breeds can now get certified as being not just pretty to look at. There will be more to come in the future. Why not join in and help start the kind of trials you'd like to see for French Mastiffs and Caucasian Ovcharkas?

because they tend to look for other things too - if they want 'the best' dog then you get the benefit of that in the form of health, temperament, size, coat etc etc too - if a breeder (ie hobby or BYB) just wants 'a dog' then that's all you get.

I've had both and you definitely get what you pay for - I'd go to a breeder with show history and experience everytime from now on.

EDIT re temperament - any show dog that shows aggression in the ring, ie when being examined by the judge, is penalised so temperament is bred for in show dogs - in my breed it's a major point that the dogs are NOT agressive to people or other dogs - dog/dog aggression is a major fault in a Border Terrier.

EDIT2 for Greekman - you know what's nice? my show breeder also works her terriers! Her husband was master of hounds at the time I got my pup from her and the pups mom is worked to fox......and they were house pets!

Border Terrier Standard - first line "Essentially a working terrier"