Looking for a tougher/harsher bit than the loose ring snaffle?

Perhaps she needs a bit that works in a different manner. Maybe she can try a Slotted Kimberwicke. It still has a snaffle mouthpiece but works with a curb chain under the jaw and poll pressure. It has different slots for different rein positions. Reinsman makes a very nice one with a sweet iron mouth piece.

You really want to MINIMIZE the pressure on the bars of the mouth not add to it.

I highly doubt a harsher bit will help, it will most likely cause more problems.

If the horse has a SOFT mouth, do NOT get a harsher bit, it can ruin the horses mouth and once you start using a harsher bit, it is only a matter of time until it stops working and you need to move to an even harsher bit.

You cannot expect a horse to stop on a dime and, tell your friend to work her horses chest muscles and front end because that is where the 'stopping' power comes from. If they have a strong back end, they most likely will have trouble stopping 'quickly'.

Tell her to get some lessons and learn how to ask for slowing in her seat. She should come into a downward transition with forward momentum and in her body, just think 'walk' or 'trot'. It works 100%. You relax the body and the horse feels it and reacts. If she relaxes, he will. Stay deep and very relaxed.

If it is a concern and she is starting to lose confidence, check the gear. Is the bit the right size for the horse? Is the bit too low in the mouth? Maybe put the bit up one hole, I do this XC to gain better turns as I am 'closer' to his mouth in a way, but I always ask with my seat and legs too. Make sure the horse has a drop noseband or hanovarian of some sorts as this may be the key. If not, and she IS losing confidence, I would suggest her speaking to a knowlegable instructor who knows the horse and can assist.

The Dutch Gag may be something to look at - it is still a snaffle, so you are not destroying the horses mouth, but it has rings attached which you can attach the reins to to create different severitys. It basically rotates the bit at a different angle in the mouth and creates different pressure. There is another bit called the Debauche bit (sorry I could be a little off with the spelling/name) and it has a similar action.

A harsher bit requires experienced, forgiving, soft hands. If your friend does not have those requirements, she should not be getting a harsher bit - sorry but I have seen people destroy horses mouths thinking they need a 'harsher' bit when all they need is a littl education.

Good luck

EDITED TO ADD: From what you have added above, she certainly does NOT need a harder bit. You have answered the question yourself - the horse is green, its education is minimal and it is still processing everything and is still confused. Put an Eggbutt on, French Link or Snaffle. The Eggbutt being fixed will stabilise the bit in the horses mouth until he is more accepting of the bit - right now he is NOT ACCEPTING THE BIT! Once you have accomplished this, put a Loose Ring KK Training Snaffle on. Loose Ring helps prevent the horse from taking hold of the bit and is highly recommended for horses who lean on the bit. This is something her trainer should be assisting with and focusing on, and if they aren't it is time to find someone who is more experienced with younger horses. I hope your friend is not holdng onto the reins and pulling without reward or release?!

I trained with an olympic dressage trainer who did all of her training of huge strong warmblood stallions in a full cheek snaffle bit. These horses were brought to full collection in classical dressage in a single jointed snaffle...no gags and no other devices. When you know one can perform passage and piaffe on a simple snaffle riding an enormous stallion, then you know that stronger bits aren't the answer to achieving results, no matter how big the horse is. This same trainer still judges olympic trials and is world renowned.

Your statement that the bit bends in his mouth and doesn't engage makes no sense. Strong pulls on the bit aren't necessary unless the response to seat and leg cues haven't been trained adequately. Since the bit is the last cue engaged, his responding too slow is the result of inadequate training so that he has already responded to her other cues by the time the bit comes into play. I suggest a full cheek snaffle which assists in lateral work which needs more training in this horse and will help to get him working properly. A smooth copper mouth single or double jointed is fine. Some horses lean more on a double jointed bit...I always use a single jointed bit. The idea that it hits the hard palate if fully engaged is being proven false, since a 2 1/2 inch rise in the joint would be required to touch the palate in the majority of horses, and most horses will respond well to this mouthpiece. With the full cheek, the bit will not slide, and used with bit keepers, the mouthpiece is kept in place and a slight poll effect is added. It is all the bit anyone should need to train a horse. She should focus on developing the other aids to solve this problem.

P.S. The Kimberwicke does not have a snaffle option. The D is set below the mouthpiece, which is a leverage effect. A snaffle D is centered alongside the mouthpiece. This horse should be ridden in a bit with no mouth leverage force.

It is impossible to minimize force applied to the bars of the mouth if you use any leverage bit, which puts the bars in a vice.

Sweet Iron Loose Ring Snaffle

If this horse is still green, I wouldn't get a severe leverage/curb bit, like the gag you mentioned. And I certainly would not get a curb with a jointed mouthpiece. A french link is actually going to have less impact, it's a very soft bit. A mullen-mouth might be a good fit, or an uxeter Kimberwicke at most.

Ideally of course, a horse should learn to respond to a light contact, but in reality, some horses like your friends, and mine, need to have strong impact when learning, then when they get it, you can tone down the volume. I have found that in addition to using the uxeter on my guy, I alternated that with a hackamore, and he did pretty well.

Also, I went back to ground work, which make a very big difference.

And if you friend's trainer can do some short longe lessons, especially if this horse longes well, that will help more than anything else, because it will give the horse a chance to translate the ground cues to riding aids.

Good luck!

If she wants a -little- more control, try using a drop nose band with the snaffle, this will make the bit more effective.

A snaffle is usually more than sufficient for most horses. As long as the bit is seated correctly in the mouth; incorrectly seated bits are the source of a lot of problems; there's no reason why the bit shouldn't work perfectly well.

As for responding too slowly, the only way to improve this, without torturing the poor animal and ruining its mouth, is by schooling, schooling and more schooling.

Tell her she's being lazy and to take the time to train her horse properly....

they are called roundings. they are used only on a bit that is designed to have 2 reins - so normally a pelham or ive often seen them on a dutch gag, the pelham is a bit that was designed to be used with a normal bridle instead of the curb and bradoon on the double bridle (which is always used with 2 reins and roundings should never be used) the top rein on a pelham is the snaffle rein and applies pressure to the toungue and bars of the mouth, the curb section on the pelham applies pressure to the poll and the curb groove when a curb chain is used, so the snaffle is usually the more active rein, and curb pressure applied as and when needed with the 2nd rein, however some people find 2 sets of reins a handfull when using the pelham, or ive seen children use roundings on a pelham much for the same reason.... the thing is, when the roundings are attached, it makes the bit more severe than a normal snaffle, and acts in a different way to what it was originally designed for... people now generally use pelhams, not as a replacement for the double bridle and 2 bits (which was its original intended use) but for stronger horses and ponies.... the roundings give the rider one rein instead of 2 but then the amount of feel and action you can have with the bit is limited....

i would suggeest a hanging mouth snaffle which has separate rings for the cheek pieces to go through adding a little bit of levergae and poll pressure to help with braking. or a dutch gag (or bubble bit). having it on the snaffle ring will do the same as the hanging cheek but if she needs even more of a pull then she can drop it another ring to add yet more poll pressure.

maybe instead of looking for something with more pressure/force, you should simply try a snaffle bit with 3 pieces in the mouth, or maybe even a solid mouthpiece. try that first before looking to a harsher bit. also have your friend realize that seat and leg cues befor rein/bit cues work wonders.

harsher bits aren't very good. They don't make your horse happy. I'd go for a Egg-Butt Sanffle bit, because they are a nice bit but make your horse listen and keep them under control!