Attention Cesar Milan and dominance theory fans?

Hmmm...I'm not going to be popular after this answer but: Dogs don't have the capacity for "respect" in the terms we use it. In human terms respect = admiration. You admire the way somebody handles themself and their business therefore you're willing to accept their advice and follow their commands. Dogs don't admire. They do EVERYTHING they do for THEMSELVES. Dogs don't sit to "please" you, dogs at first, sit for the treat. If you do corrections training to train a dog he MUST obey even if there is no food or he doesn't feel like complying (you SHOULD do corrections training, if you don't your dog isn't fully trained) then the dog sits to avoid the correction plus the possibility of a treat or a pat that feels good. Dogs don't do anything for eachother nor will they do anything for you for free without reason. They don't share food out of compassion, they "give" what they percieve as "their" food as a reward to the others in the pack for helping on the hunt and acknowledging their place in the pack. Pack leaders reward what they want, and correct what they don't want. The lower members of the pack FEAR the alpha for the physical abuse he/she can put out and they stick with the alpha because they get rewarded and of course, their chances of survival in a pack are way greater than their chances alone. The old Conrad Most and William Koehler methods of fear training worked because: That's the system pack canids are accustomed to. But us as humans, have weaknesses (like the weakness of being able to put ourselves into something or somebody else's shoes). We feel "bad" for using Most's and Koehler's method, we think animal abuse is wrong...pack leaders have no such feelings, if they rip a lower ranking member to pieces they sleep just as good. So we, as humans, have strived to find "nicer" ways of training our dogs. Now I believe the most effective system of training dogs has arrived and it won't get much better for a long while to come. Marker training with treats to introduce obedience exercises and to teach behaviors. Corrections training, FAIR corrections training to teach a dog "I'm your friend, I love you, and I'm fair...if you do what I say, you'll be rewarded. If you purposely ignore my commands you will be corrected just as you deserve". And then finally you do Distractions Training which is where you test your dog through adding distractions and making sure the dog minds when there are extreme distractions around (such as other dogs, cats, joggers, cars, bicycles). A lot of dogs will break training when they see a cat...during distractions training you're setting the dog up from failure because, like us, dogs learn from their mistakes! In conclusion I guess I'll say this: Don't dig too deep into a dog's feelings...dogs have the physical feelings we have, I believe dogs have love because the dominant pair are lifelong mates. I believe that 1 out of 100 dogs will actually do things to please you, but 100 out of 100 pet owners think their dogs just LOVE to please them. And I know for a fact that the other 99 dogs do what they do to either gain pleasure or food, or to avoid displeasure or discomfort. That's where we are today people, we moved from food training and pain training to a 3 phase method that includes marker training with treats and "discomfort" instead of pain during corrections training. When you train with modern EFFECTIVE methods you'll have a dog who listens and responds 100% of the time yet still loves you! Conrad Most and Koehler trained dogs usually HATE their owner and obey out of fear. It takes a STRONG stable dog to take those kinds of unfair corrections and still be loving dogs (tough dogs like Norbo Ben Ju who I have many females out of!). The yuppy new age training of all treats, love, halties and harnesses will give you a dog who at best "usually" obeys. That 1 time you open the door and they bolt after a cat across the street will make "usually" not enough.

People can misuse just about any theory you want to name. There are a number of ways to get a dog to do what you want it to, or to prevent it from doing something you don't want it to. I think you have to use various methods in various situations. Let's keep in mind that Cesar Millan is dealing with dogs with pretty severe behaviour problems, whose owners have been unable to do the most basic things with their dogs, and whose dogs are doing outrageous things. These people simply have no idea what makes a dog do what it does, and no idea how to get a dog to want to do what you want. I've had dogs for a long time and have had only one with anything approaching such problems, which dog came to me as an adult with those problems. I eventually sorted her out, and with what I know now could do the same thing much faster.

This article talks about force and coercion, which doesn't sound much like what I do with my dogs. I do establish that I'm the boss around here, but I have never used any physical force to do it. Pardon me, I forgot. I did once, about 20 years ago, with the above-mentioned difficult dog. It worked, too. She became a much different dog after that and for the 10 years more that she lived I never needed to do such a thing again. This article implies that dominant behaviour is a case of physically forcing a dog to submit, when it's much more subtle than that.

Edit: I Call Lizard makes some very good points. I agree completely.

I think Cesar Milan is a fruitcake, personally. However, there are valid parts of "so-called" dominance training that this report still skirts. The facts that:

a.) There should still be a dominant figure in the household

b.) The dominant behaviors occur with regards to resources

c.) It's important for the dominant figure to be stable and confident.

These are things I do believe in. I don't believe in "alpha rolling" a dog that is being aggressive, however, I do believe that my dog should understand that *I* am the supreme ruler in my home, and that ALL good things come from me. When my dogs believe this, they are happy, as am I. There is peace in my household.

Many who dismiss a pack theory, think that a dog should be "our equal", and sorry, but that's just not the case. In ANY instance where a group of animals is living together socially, there MUST be a hierarchy within the group. Ever heard the phrase "too many chiefs and not enough indians?" That's what you get if you allow your dog to "be equal". The leader is the one who provides food and shelter. This is true with ants, bees, lions, humans, etc. By helping my dog understand his/her place within my household, he/she can relax and just be my dog. I have fewer behavioral issues.

I am not a fan of Cesar. I will use corrections as needed in my training, but they are often subtle and yet very effective. I often use my body language to communicate a correction, rather than a voice. Watch a dog learning to herd. We can take a single step into the direction of a dog and successfully get the dog to push out a little more off the sheep and correct a flank. It's quite fascinating what your body language is capable of getting across to your dog.

There are lots of good ways to assert your alpha roles with a dog without being extremely assertive.

I do believe there are instances where you do have to dominate your pet to show who is the boss.

In training such as obedience you need to use positive reassurance to show the pet it has done what you asked and reward it appropriately.

Cesar works with trouble dogs that have become the rulers of their surroundings. Most of the shows I have watched are just to get the dog to the point where they will listen to the owner instead of dominate the owner. Can this be done with kindness and treats? In Cesar's cases probably not because that is what these dogs demand from their owners. As you have seen when they show Cesar's kennel...he has a pack environment. That's what he is comfortable with in dealing with these trouble dogs. After he leaves the owners, it is there responsibility to train their dogs using positive training.

There are so many different styles of training to meet the different personalities of the vast variety of dogs out there.

What I use on my dogs may not work for others. And might I add...my dogs love me and do what I say, and they are happy to make me happy.

Thanks for the Spam notice...I have seen more and more of those in here.

I personally like Cesar Milan and I know that his dominance training is good for dominant dogs with serious, dangerous behavioral issues.

His training methods are silly on everyday pets, but can be lifesaving if you have a case of wrong-dog, wrong-owner in a breed that is large and aggressive.

I've read his books. He doesn't advocate using dominace rolling or any of his training methods. There is no "how-to". Even at the beginning of the show they state "Do not try these methods without the aid of a professional".

It works for some dogs, it works in some cases. It is definitely not for everyone.

Its about damn time that moron was put into his place- in the trash with the rest of the has-been's of the dog training world.

I have never liked dominance theory. Its a way to get bit in the face and create a fearful and aggressive dog.

"growling at the dog, performing an “alpha roll,” staring the dog down, and enforcing a “dominance down” frequently elicited an aggressive response from the dog"

Amazing what you learn when you step outside the television and into real life- isn't it?

I do believe that you need to make yourself pack leader but i am also a strong believer on positive reward training.

I'm going to continue w/four decades of my own experience ...plus the more than twenty thousand plus years of proven animal training methods before me.