why is israel required to make moderate responses to attacks on its territory? isnt war about winning?

numnum, how does it feel to be a mindless automaton for fanatical Zionism? Just curious.........

Israelis constantly paint themselves as the victims in this charade, and woe to the man who questions their motivations, for he will receive a page long diatribe about the Holocaust, racism, or how Israelis are just innocent bystanders who were accosted. lol!

Yeah, the Holocaust was terrible, but it was one of many in human history. Sorry, but the holocaust does not give Israel a free pass to murder and subjugate whoever it pleases, and Israel is in NO WAY an "innocent bystander".

If you want to know who started this mess, look to your country's favorite political pastime; Zionism!

Violence against native Palestinians started in 1917 when the Zionist Herbert Samuel was appointed as British high commissioner. He made it clear with violent action that the end result will be the creation of a Jewish state in a land that had less than 6% Jewish population.

Most native Jews, including the Palestinian Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, were opposed to Zionism at the time. Before 1917 Palestinian Christians, Muslims, and Jews coexisted in relative harmony. Violence between 1917 and 1949 resulted in the establishment of a Jewish state and the ethnic cleansing of 530 Palestinian villages and towns. Israel rejected International law by adopting exclusionary laws that prevent refugees from returning while offering automatic citizenship to Jews (including converts) from anywhere in the world. Zionists expected resistance of Palestinian Christians and Muslims. 800,000 were made refugees by 1949 (now nearly 5 million including Yassin's family). Israeli leaders from Ben Gurion to Sharon have always used the 'Zionist response' to resistance: overwhelming violence and increased colonization.

It was Zionist Jews who were first to plant bombs in market places (1930s), first to bomb civilian neighborhoods using aircraft (1947), first to send mail letter bombs (1940s), and first to hijack (1954) and shoot down (1973) civilian airplanes. As our biased mainstream US media keeps emphasizing, Palestinians also engaged in expected violent resistance. Violence is a symptom and was used to further colonization efforts whether in Palestine or in America (against Native Americans). It is not a coincidence that the major waves of expulsions of Palestinians occurred between October 1947 to January 1949 and in June 1967. It is not a coincidence that in the name of 'security', Israel destroyed over 3000 Palestinian homes rendering some 15,000 civilians homeless most in the most desirable land. The Apartheid wall being built with the excuse of the violence is not separating Israel from the occupied areas but is surrounding Palestinians in small cantons to starve them and force them to leave. Thus, Zionist leaders deem violence and escalation a sound strategy because, as the first Prime Minister of Israel admitted, peace would mean having to restore rights to native people.

Bottom line, Jewish Zionists started the violence, and now they continue to perpetuate it. The Palestinians are only fighting back. They are the victims, not you.

Palestinians are protected under the "Fourth Geneva Convention". 149 substantive articles of the Fourth Geneva Convention protect the rights of every one of these Palestinians. Since 1967, Israel has violated almost every one of these articles.

http://www.mediamonitors.net/francis7.html

Israeli crimes have been well documented by Amnesty International:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4580139.stm

While countries like the U.S. and Britain try to cover for Israel and silence the media:

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4%C2%A7ion=0&article...

Israel ended its occupation of Gaza a few years ago, but it was really a token gesture, because they immediately applied sanctions and tightened borders, keeping ample supplies of food and medicine out. Israel is killing thousands WITHOUT dropping bombs, and you wonder why the Palestinians shoot at you? If you were trying to starve MY family I would do the same!

Did you ever stop to consider that the only reason Israel exists is to CREATE imbalance and chaos in the middle east for the interests of Western Globalists? Do you think the U.S. government dumps billions of dollars into your country because they "like" you? No. You are a tool for their own ends.

///////numnum

Apparently you are not a very good reader. If you were, you would know that Israel PROVOKED the war in 1948. Israel was the FIRST to use terrorists attacks against the Palestinians. This is Historical fact. I'm sorry the truth does not jive with your narrow view of the world, but that's just the way it is. Deal with it.

Also, you can cite all the Palestinian actions you want, but the fact is, they have only been protecting themselves against YOU. Do you really think they'll just stand by while you take their land and box them in like cattle. One of Israel's first acts was to ethnically cleanse the region of 800,000 Palestinians! Read your history!

And btw, you should read your own sources. Many Arabs tried to HELP the Palestinians against King Hussein, lol! Typical Israeli argument. One Arab is bad so all of them must be.

The reason is that there is no way to "win" that war in absolute terms. Israel is surrounded by enemies who, if given the chance, would gladly unite to strike against Israel. While the Jewish state is strong it is not girded against attack such that it could fend off attacks from all Arab nations and strikes from Hezbollah as well.

Additionally, if a war should erupt to that extent the US would be obligated to play a role, either diplomatic or military. The resulting conflict would upset global energy markets and may be one which draws in superpowers on one side or the other increasing the threat to global security and stability. The war between Egypt and Israel of the 1970's nearly had this effect when the then Soviet Union let US diplomats know that if Israel pushed into Cairo or destroyed the Egyptian third army they would be forced to deploy their forces to prevent it. That would have required a US response and the end result would have been catastrophic.

The truth is that with so many different players and global political interests resting on this conflict there is no path to victory other than peace. It is not the desire of the UN or any nation that this war should last forever but until all sides realize that peace is the victory they all should mean to achieve it will continue...

Before answering, I am assuming you are Israeli. Sometimes Americans are so gun ho about Israel that they speak of it with more passion than their own country, so you never know.

First, the conflict has been going on for alot more than 7 years. It has been essentially going on since the Balfour declaration by the British, subsidized by the WJC, promoted Jewish Nationalism and immigration to Palestine.

Now to answer you, the UN is inconsequential, but the financial and industrial elites that run the UN and the US very much do want it to last forever. War is profit. What good is it to them if you have peace. The US does not give you 3 billion a year so you can plant good will, we do so you can build settlements and be a continuous source of conflict. You create enemies for yourself and we get to profit off of the fighting. It is that simple.

The Egyptians and Jordanians actually were quite clever and got the best of Israel back in the day. Though they are obviously betraying the feelings of their countrymen, they used Israels greed to its own demise. They gave up the West Bank and Gaza, two places that would be the greatest thorn in Israels side over to the Israelis. Both the Egyptians and Jordanians can no longer be blamed for those militants and they essentially told Israel "There you go, now it is trully your problem alone".

As far as what Israel should do? To be honest, 47s' answer really does leave you the 2 only real choices. I have a third though. What has made Israels' life hell is not simply its Arab neighbors but the way it wishes to remain the dominant force, even in complete peace, over those neighbors. If they changed that core principal, the 90% of Muslims that are moderates would accept a final peace with Israel.

There is not going to be a 2 state solution and everyone knows it. The Gaza strip, contrary to what you mention can never be a viable economy or state on its own, and that even if the Israelis granted it open access to the sea, air, and land (Which it never fully has). Even connected to the West Bank, this swiss cheese state has no viability. As long as Israel wants to maintain the settlements and keep control over the sea, air, and land access points to those territories, there will never be 2 states or peace.

The only alternative to 47s' proposals is the annexation of the two areas under complete Israeli control, the promotion of all moderate elements in the Israeli state, Arab or Jew, and the elimination of the extremists on both sides. Peace will be a possibility, but the Jewish character of Israel will most likely cease within 20 years due to demographics.

As long as Israel sees their country as the one that should be the dominant one even in peacetime over 98% of the Muslims its surrounds, it will never ever have peace. Since you cannot eradicate all of the region and you do not want to leave, what real options are left?

Change or continue waging a moderate war...

One leads to peace the other leads to the rich getting richer of off innocent people.

Israel has no right to be there. Period.

Doesn't matter who did what, or how many of who killed how many of the other, or when, or for how long.

The root of the issue is that Israel simply has no right to exist on that land. It is an illegitimate state. All the support of Western empires does not and will not ever make Israel a legitimate sovereign nation.

I like Israeli people, I really do, and I'm sorry that your government is criminal and your country is illegitimate. (My government is criminal, too.)

But this conflict won't end unless Israel packs up and leaves.

The only alternative is, as you say, simply kill all the Palestinians, down to every last man woman and child.

And of course, after that, you'll still have every other Muslim nation in the region to destroy, before they come down on you from all sides in a brutal war of attrition. You've got all the nukes, so what's it gonna be?

It's got to be one or the other, or you'll never have peace.

Regional destabilization is the primary reason why Israel was put there in the first place. As long as it sits there, it will continue to serve its purpose, and the region will remain unstable.

So you are right, as long as Israel keeps stopping just short of total genocide, the conflict will never be resolved. Israel needs to either take over the entire region and kill everyone, or apologize and leave.

Sh*t or get off the pot.

Are you suggesting that we condone the genocide of Palestinians? The Israelis are treating Palestinians in the same way that the Nazis treated the Jews. the Israeli regime is no better than terrorists. If they want peace, then they should stop killing Palestinians and get back to the 1947 borders. What's gentle about terrorising, brutalising, murdering, bombing and ghettoising Palestinians?

You should learn your history, dude, and perhaps look more carefully at what you consider to be an acceptable way to treat the people of a sovereign nation. (Although, with the Americans advising the Israelis, it's not surprising they are getting it so wrong.)

All soldiers are civilians fighting for what they consider to be important to defend. Hamas is no different. The Israelis are trying to kill every Palestinian on the planet, and Hamas is fighting for their survival. It's that simple.

Edit

Let's be clear here. I don't condone the use of bombs and bullets by either Hamas or Israelis. (If you're in a ceasefire, firing rockets is really a no no), What I'm saying is that all the time Israelis mistreat and abuse Palestinians, they play into the hands of extremists. Every time someone gets kidnapped and tortured by Israeli police, or a person is killed from a bomb or spray of bullets into a place of worship, or access to the basics of life are denied to ordinary civilians and others die from a lack of supplies to hospitals, then you will have more recruits to Hamas. These people just want to live, and the Israelis have learnt from the Nazis how to ghettoise a people and slowly starve them to death. They should have access to everything they need for daily life, things the Israeli regime is denying them.

BOBO is a jerk who has no idea about how to resolve a conflict like this. I'll bet he has rows with his family and never speaks to them again. Makes for a lonely Christmas, don'tcha think? You cannot resolve these things by becoming ever more extreme. Democracy is no friend in these situations, as the people will vote for those they feel will protect their interests. Moderate ideas and diplomatic responses are perceived as weakness by both sides. If the Israelis left the Gaza strip alone and ensured its civilians had the supplies they needed, it would knock the wind out of Hamas and undermine their credibility.

That is why restraint is being advocated, that is why Israel is being asked to moderate its response. It makes sense.

Edit: By the way, not all Israelis agree with the treatment of Palestinians by their government. There are many who will not join the army and contribute to their suffering at the hands of the Israeli regime.

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/509.html

These people have every right to refuse taking part in oppression, and should be released from jail as soon as possible.

Wars exist to generate profit. The key winners in all wars are those companies that provide the weapons. These companies have become very powerful indeed; they even control what we think and learn about by owning the mass media, or at least being very friendly with mass media owners, and controlling political activity surrounding the education systems. It is not inconceivable that arms manufacturers plant the bombs, kill innocent people, tell us it was terrorists that did it and then start wars to end terrorism. Hasn't that already happened somewhere? The recent bombings in India prove this beyond doubt. Some terrorists may even exist, but they are small time compared to the arms manufacturers.

After 9/11, I no longer believe "anything" that I learn from the mass media.

It's no secret that the rest of the Middle East is intimidated/frightened by Iran and its unpredictability. That's one reason why Hussein was so tolerated in Iraq, because he stood up to Iran and they had a power tug-of-war that held on to what peace the region had. This is also why invasion of Iraq and removal of Hussein was so unpopular among other Middle Eastern nations, because with him gone, Iran would make a grab for power. Perhaps Saudi Arabia now realizes that the enemy of her enemy is her friend, and would rather see Iran wiped out then an entire Middle Eastern war.

The United Nations and their ridiculous rules only serve to destroy Capitalist countries. You'll notice they never mess with countries unless they're Capitalist. They ignored the camps in Russia, they let Pol Pot do as he pleased, they never say a word to the violent "Palestinians" lobbing rockets daily into Israel.

No disproportionate response is the most idiotic thing I've ever heard of. It will only cause conflicts to go on forever. It's sad that so many Americans give their lives to serve in our military under the sickening rules of the United Nations. We need to get out of that organization.

Precisely!

... If war is about winning and in the words of the greatest military strategist in history (Sun Tzu), you "make your own enemy", tell me how indiscriminate responses are supposed to reduce the number of terrorists?

I thought some folks might have cottoned on that there was no (none, zip, nada, ZERO) terrorism in Iraq for instance before we rolled up and bombed the place to smithereens. There was afterwards though wasn't there, odd kind of coincidence that isn't it?!

Have you worked out the connection yet, if so we'll try for a slightly more advanced concept shall we, such as why using gasoline to put out forest fires might also be a bad idea?

this has become the accepted procedure in war. an all out attack on the palestinians would require other arab nations to respond and create a much larger conflict like a third world war.

look at our response in the korean and vietnamese wars where measured response was the rule. everyone knows we could have destroyed both north korea and north vietnam but we did not. if we had a Teddy Roosevelt in washington things would be different.now we have a new liberal utopian world leader in the house .

Oh dear. You don't even have a grip on the basics do you!

You talk about the UN, do you know that Israel in in breach of several UN resolutions regarding their invasion of Palestinian land and inhuman treatment of Palestinians? Google it.

Do you realise that Israel has been built on Palestinian land?

NUMNUM EDIT....

Where do I want Israel to withdraw to? How about the 1947 UN partition - See Below

http://www.nad-plo.org/maps/borders/jpeg/1947.jpg

'Hamas' rockets killed one Israeli. The israelis killed 200 palestinians in response. Where will that response lead, other than war?