What is your stance on the horse drawn carriage proposed ban in NYC?

The horses that work in NYC actually live a pretty good life. While yes, six months out of the year, they would have to work in really hard conditions, however, the other six months the horses are sent to a huge big farm in the country, either in PA or Upstate NY and they are turned out for the rest of the year. And in the city they are well taken care of. I had the opportunity to visit one of the stables, the guy who ran it was named Buster (my dad was old friends with him), he actually was in the movie Moonstruck right before the Opera House scene. The horses were kept upstairs in a warehouse almost, not far from Central Park, and they were kept in rows of standing stalls that were pretty big, and one horse had a box stall. These horses were also fed more than enough and they did not look like they were in any distress of discomfort.

I think that people believe that the heat and the extreme conditions of the working horses is why they proposed this ban, which is not true. Very recently, there have been many accidents in NYC involving cars running into the horse carriages and have ended up in the death of the horse. My guess is that the city council began hearing of this (or possibly Mayor Bloomberg's daughter, Georgiana, who is a Grand Prix Show Jumper) and thought more of the safety of the horses concerning cars.

I totally agree with them on the fact that the cars are dangerous for the horses, however, I would be more for the punishment of careless drivers (motor and horse-drawn) that end up being involved in those accidents. If the punishment were strict enough and possibly signs were posted along the routes where horse-drawn vehicles traveled, then the amount of the accidents would decrease and therefore the problem would be eliminated almost completely. But yes, because the drivers of cars (and I say cars because most of the cars are easier to stop and drive than a horse-drawn carriage) are careless and are threatening to kill horses, then I totally agree with a very strict punishment at the minimum, a ban would be a little too much.

Galloppal: You accuse me of ignoring reality, how can I ignore reality when I am probably one of the few people on here who have actually seen one of these stables. Seeing something in real life is not a fantasy. May I ask if you have ever been to one of these stables? May guess is not. So you cannot go accusing me of ignoring a reality that you have not seen yourself. And allow me to say this, Buster McGhee's horses were given some of the best care that any New York City horse could receive. They were given plenty of food and water, they were not working nine hours a day, they had plenty of room to lie down in their standing stalls, and yes, they did receive a six month break when they were sent to a big farm in PA were they were turned out nearly all the time, and finally, they were loved and admired by their drivers. This is clearly not a fantasy and is reality.

I've enjoyed taking carriage tours in Kona, Hawaii; New Orleans; San Diego, CA, Washington, DC, Boston, and Dublin, Ireland. On the whole, the people I've taken the tours with have been good people who cared for the horses they regarded as their partners. But there have been exceptions. In New Orleans and Boston, I encountered drivers who obviously would have been as happy (unhappy) flipping burgers on the grill at a fast-food place as they were driving horses, and they regarded their horses as impersonally as they would have regarded a spatula or frying pan or some other tool. In Boston the driver we went with was so sharp-tempered at his horse that we aborted the tour and reported him to the company that did the tours. I don't know the outcome of that.

The welfare of the horses on these tours is largely dependent on the drivers-- how well they know horses and horsemanship, and how willing they are to forego potential income and go home if conditions aren't right for the horse or if the horse isn't well. The bulk of the drivers I came in contact with when we took tours struck me as people who would do the right thing. But some were clearly either uncaring or lacked the knowledge to adequately protect their horses.

I would hate to see the tours end in any of the cities I've been to. I don't know if regulation alone would be adequate to prevent abuses. FWIW, the best tours we had were given by people who owned the horses they drove; both the tours where we felt the drivers weren't looking out for the horses were situations where the drivers were employees who obviously didn't care. I don't know how you can do anything about that.

I believe that people who take the tours have an obligation to the horses, too, and to not take a tour if they feel that conditions are unhealthy for the horse. And of course to report any driver who they believe is treating a horse in an abusive or dangerous way.

I think its time has come. Unless they came up with a way to stable these horses in Central Park, and keep the carriage rides within the park and away from the traffic, I think it presents too many problems to be continued. We can't call things staples and traditions and keep them on that basis. Times change, the world changes, and some traditions don't work anymore. Mexican bullfights are iconic, but I'd love to see that tradition go by the wayside as well. If people wish to see the beauty of the horse, I doubt they will find it in an overworked carriage horse competing with traffic, and noise, and fumes on the streets of New York.

Add....I wonder how many answering this question would allow their own horses to work on concrete all day long breathing the fumes, rain or snow, in the dead heat of summer and the bitter cold of winter, day after day, only to be rewarded by standing in a stall and fed enough so they can be ready to go and do the same thing again the next day? Euthanasia might be a welcome relief for some of these horses, who have nothing to look forward to that is any different, day after long day, and year after year.

After reading the next post, I can't find anywhere that there exists any law that has ever required such vacations to be afforded to these horses, not that it would justify the misery of the other six months anyway. And just when do these horses ever get to lie down if they go into "rows of standing stalls" after their 9 hour shifts end?

Here are the laws as of Dec, 2008....

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=13311

I don't see anything about vacations, not even for two weeks much less 6 months, anywhere in there. In fact, I don't see anywhere that they are required to have even one day off, ever.... Let's separate fantasy from reality. There isn't enough manpower now to enforce the existing pitiful few laws protecting these horses. In our dwindling economy, that situation can only get worse.

I think it's ludicrous. Horse drawn carriages are a staple of New York. They are iconic.

There are of course reckless, ignorant, greedy, vagrants who abuse their carriage horses and should be jailed and fined. Increase regulations. Make licensing mandatory. Do something to prevent/punish those who abuse the privilege, but don't punish the honest folk and those who love to see the beauty of the horse.

1. They SPCA goes around on the very hot days and tells the carriage drivers to pack it up and go on home

2. I don't think there should be a ban, I think there should be more regulations to prevent horses that are poorly taken care of. A lot of those carriage drivers really love and take care of their horses.

I think banning it is taking it a bit far. Surely welfare guidelines could just be put in place. It would be a shame not too see them anymore. But it isnt worth it if the horse's welfare is compromised. But with sufficient guidelines in place I do not see a problem.

I think the carriages should be allowed... they just need to have tight lays for the sake of the horses.

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And what happens to those horses when they no longer have a job? Stricter regulations and enforcement of said regs, yes. Banning, no.

Although it is saddening to not see them in parks anymore,

it is good that it is banned because during summer months, the horses

were tired, sweaty, and probably overheated. It's good that they are

being protected from the possible care-less driver who is money hungry.

(especially in these bad times...)