Calvinists: How would you respond to my friend's denial of the doctrine of "Total Depravity"?

Question

I created a Calvinist group (which I will not name to make it clear that I am not trying to promote it) on Facebook the other day and one of my friends I invited to join had this to say in a message to me today...

"Sorry (I removed my name from the text) but I won't join that group. I believe John Calvin has it all wrong. I do not believe in limited atonement nor do I believe in total depravity. The Bible teaches in many places that man was "unwilling" to come to the Lord: "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling." (Matthew 23:37 NASB) Here Jesus makes two things very clear. The first being that Jesus said that He wanted to gather them together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, thus indicating Jesus wanted them to come unto Him but they were "unwilling." 

Second, Jesus said they were "unwilling" to come indicating they had a choice or free will. If a person has the ability to be unwilling they also have the ability to be willing, that is just common sense. In the King James version, Matthew 23:37 says "ye would not", proving that there is a free will. Jesus did not say "you could not" but rather He said, "you would not." 

The doctrine of Total Depravity teaches that man either rejects God or chooses God because of His predestined plan of who will be saved and who will not be saved. In the book of Acts, Stephen is before the religious Jews preaching the message of Jesus Christ to them, and Stephen indicates that they resisted the Holy Spirit. "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did." (Acts 7:51 NASB) Stephen states here that they resisted the Holy Spirit, thus indicating they were unwilling to accept the message of Jesus Christ. 

In John 16:7-15 Jesus taught that the Holy Spirit would come and testify about Him, but it does not say, "the Holy Spirit would force people to believe." The point is if we are able to be "unwilling to come to Christ" and able "to resist the Holy Spirit" then we have a free will. In the book of Joshua the teaching of free will is clearly there: "15 "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." 16 The people answered and said, "Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods; 17 for the LORD our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of , and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 "The LORD drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also will serve the LORD, for He is our God." 19 Then Joshua said to the people, "You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins. 20 "If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you after He has done good to you." 21 The people said to Joshua, "No, but we will serve the LORD." 22 Joshua said to the people, "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him." And they said, "We are witnesses." (Joshua 24:15-22 NASB) 

In these verses there are four "proofs" that total depravity is not accurate. First, this is before the work of the cross and the regenerating of the Holy Spirit. Calvinism teaches that a person cannot receive Jesus without first being regenerated, known as being born again. People were not born again before the work of the cross; that came after Christ was crucified and resurrected. Secondly, the people were given a "choice" to choose to serve God or to serve false gods. Thirdly, the people made a choice to serve God. Fourthly, Joshua recognized they "have chosen for themselves the LORD, to serve Him", thus indicating they were able to choose the LORD. 

Total inability is wrong Biblically, and Total inability is wrong logically. Total inability is wrong Biblically because the Scriptures clearly teach that we have a decision to make based upon us, not God forcing us as 
Matthew 23:37, Acts 7:51, and Joshua 24:15-22 demonstrates. Total inability is wrong logically because it compares a person who is dead physically, which then the question would be "can a person who is spiritually dead not sin?" The person who is in a tomb can do nothing, so if a person who is spiritually dead cannot have any ability to choose God, therefore they have no ability to do anything, thus they cannot sin either. This sounds ridiculo

ccrider · Accepted Answer

I would not have expected Matthew 23:37 to be quoted, because it supports Calvinism so well. When the mother hen calls her own chicks, do the other chicks respond?  Only her own will know the sound of her voice, and she knows who her own children are.  "Would not" is exactly what would happen for the reprobate.

As for the "resisting the Holy Spirit" passage, the word choice of "resisting" comes out as rebellion in Calvin's commentaries. I believe this to be the tone in this passage.

And if the Holy Spirit testifies, then honestly, who is able to resist God?  We are talking removal of hearts of stone and replacement with hearts of flesh. We cannot do this ourselves. 

Joshua's "choose this day" was not a begging of outsiders to come to the Lord.  He gave them a choice of false god #1 or false god #2. This was a dare.  This passage is not a denial of faith coming from above in the first place.

Total depravity is accurate. It is partial depravity that falls apart logically.  Spiritually dead people cannot open their own eyes.  It must be done for them. The spiritually dead are dead IN their sins, it does not mean they are incapable of sinning. 

Partial depravity leads to man's partaking in his own salvation.  If man and God share in this, then we need to worship both. Glory to Man. Arminians do not realize the dangerous ground they tread on with "all you have to do" salvation.

Anonymous · Answer

The first of the 5 points of Calvanism means that until a man (or woman) has been preached the word of God and made aware of the Gospel - he/she is "totaly depraved" of knowing God and cannot find salvation apart from knowing Him. This was believed for many years to be true but now we know (by a better understanding of the Bible and the Grace of God) that it is NOT true. We still need to hear the word of God in order to be saved from eternal death (Romans.10:17) but we are not totaly depraved of knowing that God exists. It is written; that to some degree, the law of God is written on every human's heart and that because we are made in the "image of God' - whether we are Atheists or other - we subconsciously know that God the Creator and Judge of the world does exist and that we are accountable to Him. So to say that man is "TOTALY depraved" of knowing and understanding God is untrue. “For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)” (Rom. 2:14-15 AV)

Sir Al Kazal · Answer

I would say that He is right to a point.  

I am what some call a soft 5 Point.  

I believe that all are called by God and convicted of Sin by the Holy Spirit but given the choice as to whether or not to respond to the Spirit's drawing.  I do not believe that grace is irresistible.  I do believe that God knows who will and who won't accept Him and I believe that Christ died for all.  But there are those who will refuse the work done on the cross and choose Hell over heaven.  

Email me if you need clarification.

troll to troll · Answer

Those that wish to impose a heavy yoke and live off the efforts of others use the Calvinistic twist in the physical. These are as thieves that would take without effort.

John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
_______

Without the Spirit of God a person does not have life. This is Nephesh in Hebrew also called the breath of life.

The guidance to a life with God comes through the Holy Spirit . This would be Ru'ach in Hebrew. This is Wisdom and the Comforter.

The Holy Spirit is also not only  the breath of life and wisdom but also that which pervades all of creation whom Paul say to look for as proof there God exists when refuting the early atheists. (Psalm 53 "The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God.")
_______

It is through Christ Jesus who sends the comforter to act upon us in times that we need.
In our separation from God called sin gray bleakness of the mind and spiritual understanding is as death being void of God Almighty and the abundance through our Lord and Savior Jesus.

theBerean · Answer

The doctrine of TOTAL depravity is unbiblical. 

Many good deeds and kind acts are done by unbelievers. And not all of them (or even most) have ulterior motives.

Man is TOTALLY unable to contribute ANYTHING towords his own salvation. That IS ALL the doctrine of total depravity means in the Bible.

Nothing more and nothing less.

Two more points.

1) Man still has the image of God in him. (however marred). So therefore man cannot be TOTALLY depraved.

2) IF we WERE totally depraved, we would never KNOW it (because we are totally depraved) lol duh!


....theBerean

Love Branch · Answer

T - Total Depravity

That means simply MAN is DEAD. The Bible says that you and I are dead in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1-6) unless we are born again. DEAD!!! More than that, the man or woman who is dead in sin hates God, and his "carnal mind" is "enmity against God" (Rom. 8:7). His will is stubbornly steeled against God. This Biblical idea changes a lot of modern talk about salvation. 

Consider what that means: 

Can a man do good works then, if he is not a Christian who is born again? No. "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin" (Rom. 14:23). 

Can a man want to be born again and follow instructions on "how to do it?" No, for that would be like saying that a man in a grave can desire to come out of the grave, or follow instructions on how to be made alive. It would be like trying to lure him out of the grave. "It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing" (John 6:63). 

Can any man "accept Christ" as his personal Savior, so that he becomes saved after that? Of course not. Accepting Christ is a good work done only by a Christian. Only AFTER God makes a person alive, can he and will he accept Christ. "No man can come unto me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him" (John 6:44). 

Can you "offer salvation" to anyone? That is surely impossible. One might as well offer food to a dead man than salvation to a dead sinner (Eph.2:1-2).

ONLY GOD CAN MAKE US ALIVE. AND GOD DOES THAT SOVEREIGNLY - WITHOUT OUR AID, WITHOUT OUR ASKING. From beginning to end, "Salvation is of the Lord" (Jonah 2:9). This is the faith that we preach, because it is Biblical, because it is the FAITH of our fathers, which we love, still living in our hearts, and because it gives God all the glory!

Anonymous · Answer

I believe the man has invented his own God and the way to worship him.

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Calvinists: How would you respond to my friend's denial of the doctrine of "Total Depravity"?

7 Answers