Somehow my question got deleted about fear aggressive pup...?

I'm in a jam for time right now but will get back to you shortly with a bit of expansion upon what I wrote yesterday. My guess is that the "gestapo" (censors) decided you were chatting.. plus.. they didn't like the implication that using only positive reinforcement doesn't always work.

So this doesn't get deleted -

Consider cutting back on protein

Consider timing and quitting activities when you are still successful

Google NILF

I talked to a friend who is also a behavioral training consultant... she reminded me that your puppy is going through a fear stage and that its CRUCIAL you NEVER allow anything to progress to the point where he is so fearful that he lashes out. She agreed with me that your description of allowing the Chow to pester him to the point where he snapped was a crucial indicator that you need the help of a behaviorist to assist you in learning both about how dogs think/react and the timing necessary to stop such incidents from making things work (frankly, both of us are horrified that a "trainer" allowed such a thing to occur with a fearful puppy).

One thing I did not mention yesterday is: Training a default behavior that is ALWAYS right may help you. My favorite default behavior is a sit (my daughter prefers a "down"). When stressed, my dogs know that "sit" will always be rewarded (the Sam requires a cookie, the Bernese prefer a scritch and "nice job").

You need to start making decisions for your puppy and working as a leader by determining with who and how he interacts with other dogs and people. He does NOT have to socialize with everyone. For a short while this may mean ceasing actual interaction - he can see them but they are not allowed to come near him. He will become more secure when he knows that when you do allow interaction he will be safe. Ways to stop interaction are YOU stepping in front of him (he should not ever get to the point of ducking behind you)

Maintain personal space for you and your dog. How much space is needed you will have to determine for yourself.

You need to portray that you are sure of yourself and are in command and leading. No cajoling. No "its ok" when the puppy is fearful. Make the decision - act upon it. Quit letting the pup make decisions... forestall any thoughts the pup might have that he has the right to think or decide anything.

Personally, I think NILF is a great way to go... yes, I understand he's not food oriented - but you can make him be.

Your pup does not EVER have to "interact" with other people. He does need to be in control and answering to you. He does not EVER have to "interact" with other dogs. He needs to be in control and answering to you. You need to work from a point of success... expanding on what he is doing right. He should never be allowed to bark at people or dogs ~ its an unacceptable behavior... one that would elicit an ACK! from me (my dogs are convinced ACK means death may be imminent). In your case it may mean that you remove the pup to a quiet corner and move to the default behavior so you can reward... and it may take multiple tries before the dog sits calmly and ignores what's going on when you leave the corner. I'm a fan of the running grumble ("what in the everlivin sam -h3ll do you think you are doing.......) on the way to the corner followed INSTANTLY by praise for a default behavior and focus on me.

You can fix this. The pup is young. Quit worrying about blaming the breeder or the dam ~ at this point its immaterial unless you want to return the dog. Focus on expanding on what is right... and making sure things don't happen that cause a backwards slide.

(I once took a dog who was afraid of traffic and sat on a lawnchair in the middle of a median in a busy shopping center - we started at 7 am.. when traffic was light and by 3 pm the dog was asleep) It can be fixed.. patience, consistancy and not allowing bad to happen.

Edit: I'm sorry I'm not explaining it more clearly. This is a default behavior... not something you force the dog to do because it is acting up.. but a behavior the dog learns to do as a default when it doesn't know what to do. How you train it is a simple "sit" command/action.. gradually expanded by proofing the sit in a variety of situations and with increased distance. My pups learn that I do not give attention to dogs who are not sitting -period- unless I've given another command. My proofing gradually extends from a sit beside me to a sit that I command from across the room... to a long distance sit ~ I've stopped a dog from running into traffic with a sit command. My dogs know that sit is always right and is rewarded. The key really is to have the command/action and hopefully automatic jeepers-I-don't-know-what-she-wants or what-to-do sitting down pat BEFORE you add more stressors - for you, this could mean sitting on the sidewalk away from the door outside Petco rather than going in. For me, it meant when my puppy decided one of the mats was EVIL in the show ring she SAT. I tried to encourage her to at least come sit by me closer to the mat which was a no-go... she opted to sit on the feet of the judge instead when he approached her to determine if there was a temperament issue. We decided it was in everyone's best interest to avoid the EVIL mat and simply have fun elsewhere in the ring. I considered it a success despite the fact she never went near that mat... she did go on the other 3 without issue.

Sitting is not "submissive" when you're not going to let other people or dogs come ANYWHERE near your pup. Remember, you're driving. You control what happens. If that means your pup needs 15 feet right now, you maintain that WITHOUT emotion. Sitting is now a way for the dog to please you... PERIOD.. end of story. When he is on-leash or when you are interacting with him he should be either moving forward or sitting 99% of the time. His attention on you.

yes, other dogs can go "socialize".. yours cannot at this time and we're talking about saving the life of your dog.

Edit: Gotta say that I agree with the poster who said to hold off on the neuter. It won't help and could hurt.

You don't mention the age of the dog now...??? Old school is not necessarily a bad thing...it does NOT mean he's not using a "positive reinforcement" technique. And, what exactly is wrong with a choker if used correctly? Certainly you don't thing he's gonna get "treat trained" out of this behavior...do you? Would you rather it be a pinch collar? Electric collar? Halty? (gag). It's tough to give good advice without knowing the age of the dog. At some point though, the only option MAY be to force the dog through the behavior and get him to a state of mind where he can begin to learn. If he is completely "blocking" right now, there aren't a lot of choices.

I use chokers, pinch collars, e-collars (using positive reinforcement). I also us negative reinforcement, active/passive dominance, inducive, compulsive and associative training. I've dealt with hundreds of fear based aggressive dogs. What I CAN tell you, is that I WILL NOT use a halty, halter or a clicker. If that Victoria broad told me the world was round..I'd be avoiding the edges for fear of falling off. People with little experience will blah, blah, blah about "old school", "new school", Positive reinforcement",etc....All the while having no idea what the hell they're talking about. What is successful one minute, may be detrimental the next. Techniques don't train dogs....trainers do. Experience and natural ability dictate what to do and when to do it.

It sounds like you have a big problem...depending on he dog's age. There are ways to fix it most of the time. I would go with the trainer with the most experience...and wish you good luck.

IF all else fails: Fear based aggressive dogs generally have a "comfort zone"..YOU in this case. The trick is, to CHANGE what is comfortable. This requires the assistance of several volunteers and takes a while to explain. It is 99.99% effective with chows & shar peis. You can e-mail me if you want the long explanation.

You will need to find a trainer or behaviorist who has experience in working out Fear Aggression (that is AFTER he has been checked out for a clean bill of health). I would suggest that your Vet takes a good look at his eyes, thyroid and pancreas and adrenal functioning. Too much adrenaline, poor vision, thyroid malfunction and pancreatic functioning can all play a part in aggression problems.

A puppy of this age should NOT be so aggressive and it must be put in check by whatever means necessary (hopefully confidence building rather than harsh corrections unless nothing else is getting through).

I don't know who to refer you to about the pancreatic effect, although I know there are studies being done on this as some Briards have a strong, uncontrollable aggression problem and they have linked it to the pancreas and it seems from the dog's behavior that there is no particular trigger that is a common factor. Perhaps your Vet can get a line on where to look for more info.

You might also go to:

http://www.dogstardaily.com-train-aft/ and download the FREE book by Dr. Ian Dunbar which has chapters devoted to aggression for additional insight.

Oh dear :o( I am really sorry you are having all those problems.

First of all, it is obviously your decision, but at 4 1/2 months Luther is IMHO much too young to be neutered. I understand your reasons... you probably think that this will help with his fear aggression - but it does not work that way. If you neuter a dog before he is sexually mature, you just turn his budding hormones topsy turvy and you *might* envite a whole lot of health problems on top of the fear aggression. Please have a read through this site:

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

It is a myth that neutering will get rid of aggression - if there is an aggressive strain in his make-up, neutering will not rectify that. It's a result of bad breeding. To neuter a dog is the right thing to do, but it has to be at the right time (12-18 months) and not earlier.

The fear aggression that Luther is displaying *might* be behavioural, but it could well have an underlying medical reason. Fear aggression is a classic clinical symptom for Hypothyroidism and should be considered. I'll attach two websites below for you to read.

Luther is at present too young to be reliably tested for malfunctioning thyroid, but if you did an early test, you could possibly see an early trend (pls see extract below ).

If you were to have him tested, please send the blood to Dr. Jean Dodds in California. She is an expert on all things thyroid, and she will interpret the results correctly - unfortunately not many vets are experienced and knowledgeable enough on thyroid matters and a possible diagnosis might be missed.

I'll also attach the website for Jean Dodds' Hemopet Lab below.

Good luck

You had a very small window of opportunity to lay a good foundation for Luther's socialization. I'll bet the breeder made little effort to truly socialize the litter while she had them, in terms of allowing plenty of strangers to handle them and/or make them sit for a treat, or arranging for them to meet other dogs. She should have been working her tail off socializing those puppies since she had them so long. Practically all puppies are sweet and will climb all over you, but that doesn't mean they got enough of the right experiences at the right time. There's just no telling if the breeder EVER handled ANY of her dogs properly....if she was the kind of breeder who tried to do everything right, she would never had bred a dog that had a suspect temperament.

"Puppies begin learning at birth and their brains appear to be particularly responsive to learning and retaining experiences that are encountered during the first 13 to 16 weeks after birth [Dr. Anderson is saying that the prime time for puppy socialization stops somewhere between 13 and 16 weeks, although more socialization occurs after that time]."

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/RKanderson.html

FWIW, I agree with the advise of confidence building and desensitization therapy. I think angry training will be a waste of time with a GSD.

Wow, you really did step in it, didn't you? I am so sorry. I think that you really need a good trainer for this dog. I don't know what type would be good. Is there a veterinary behavior specialist in your area? Maybe you could try that.

Thank you for being on top of the issue. I agree that there are probably genetic issues here. The ***** should not have been that aggressive. Maybe they should not have bred her.

At any rate, you need some really good help. This is a problem that will most likely require some serious confidence building and desensitization therapy, and may take a long time. Please discuss with your current trainer at length. If he feels that he cannot help you, maybe he can recommend someone that can.

Good luck.

My dog has surpassed all of my expectations I've ever had. I never imagined I could have such an easy going obedient dog. He responds well to me, and we just mesh. He'll obey commands if I just think them and look at him. As a pup he had severe separation anxiety (before he was my dog, and I was helping out at the breeder's). He'd howl and annoy EVERYONE. We're still working on stay, he doesn't like that one. However he's successfully obedient, and now is okay with being left in a crate too (he would howl his head off before). He's CGC and TDI certified. We are going to be competing in obedience at the UKC Premier show in June (I'm going to be there anyway, and it sounds like fun to try it). He's my prince charming, my four-legged boyfriend, my obedient companion, and my best friend. Glad to hear the problems with Luther are getting better! Good luck to you! ADD: Dancer: Those are not "Cesar Milan's" techniques. They've been around for long before he became a dog trainer. It's common knowledge. Even "The Great Cesar Milan" can use someone else's techniques. Doesn't make those his though.

Wow...for such a great sounding breeder, she sure screwed up, not only by breeding ONE aggressive female, but then breeding her aggressive daughter as well. That's not right.

I'm guessing there's no way that you intend on going back to the breeder and insisting on getting your money back or a different pup, eh? Understandable...it's hard not to form a bond.

At this point, I wouldn't suggest a trainer, I would suggest a behaviorist specially trained to deal with fear aggressive dogs. This isn't a learned behavior, this is an inherited trait; it only manifested as he became slightly older. Therefore, in my mind, you won't be able to "train" it out of him - you can only hope to learn how to deal with it in an effective manner, and that's where a behaviorist comes in. Do you see what I mean?

Forget trainers at this point - find a behaviorist. Just my .02. :-)

I must agree that your dog is very fearful and old school training will make a dog like that very aggressive.

The reason your pup was "ok" in the beginning is because he wasn't matured yet. Although he's still not matured he has hit a stage and GSDs go thru a few fear imprint periods. It is vital to this breed that if behavior problems are going on that they are handled very appropriately during this time or things will end up disasterous.

You need to find someone who is in your area that can deal with this issue now or I can assure you that you will have a very aggressive dog on your hands. Try to find a trainer here: www.apdt.com they tend to have a better approach and will not be using old school methods.

It sounds like you have tried every corrective action you can think of. The thing that surprises me is that when you first met him, he was fine and appeared to have no fear issues whatsoever. He was a "normal" pup. Then he developed this "fear". Normally, you can spot potential problem puppies. Yes, they do go through development stages, but this fear appears excessive.

100% positive reinforcement does not always work either. Take him to the "old school trainer", what have you got to lose.

I wish you and your puppy the best of luck.

I believe that what this breeder told you about the dog's mother, is actually what happened to your dog. I think your dog's mother was the one who was aggressive and turned on her puppies but Luther escaped harm.

Aside from that, I notice a lot of people here do not like Cesar Milan (aka "the Dog Whisperer) but you have such a unique case I think he can help you. You need to email him and include all of this. It would make for a great episode and your dog can get help!