A tricky question- how would you feel about great but morally ambiguous classical music?

It is common knowledge that the prolific operatic writer, Richard Wagner, was almost the chief inspiration behind the Nazi Party. His views about Racial Supremacy (Aryan supremacy), even though manifestly ridiculous and illogical, were taken up enthusiastically by Hitler.

His hysterical attitude to Jewish people is a rather pointed comment on his own character, I feel.

Wagner was decidedly NOT a practising Nazi (he was dead long before Hitler came to power, anyway !), and there is no strong indication that he would have ever 'acted' upon his beliefs. The fact that he was pompous/stupid enough to believe this nonsense has almost no bearing on my attitude to his music.

Karl Orff, as far as I know, WAS a practicing Nazi. For this reason, I won't listen to his music. If I am wrong about him, I guess it is me that is being hurt by this attitude? [He is dead, after all !]

If his music is played at a concert, I will always exit that concert in an obvious manner. If asked, I say "There is so much wonderful music that I find no need to listen to that written by fervent Nazis."

There are a couple of others who were Nazis mainly because they lived in Germany. Richard Strauss is one of these.

The present Pope is a former Nazi. He chose to be, furthermore. If memory serves, he was in the SS. The world, largely, seems to have forgiven him. Am I being ridiculous about Orff [ and about poor old R. Strauss]? (Very likely. I don't 'like' their music enough to change, though)

In general, an Artist who has political views that are different to my own is not on a personal black list.

Because of the evil done by Nazis, I feel their sin is more than simple 'political belief'.

First of all, I want to thank "Schumisz-" for bringing up the composer Tveitt again; have been meaning to familiarize myself with his music, just haven't gotten around to it: no excuses, will attempt to do so this evening.

I reviewed your, this question right after it was posted several hours ago; but was wary of stepping into a potential "minefield". As most of you know, I'm very biased when it comes to Wagner; and knew he would become a promient topic relatedly.

If one recalls the terrible economic/political conditions that prevailed in Germany after WW I, it's very probable that he - and too recalling his ascribed anti-semitism - would have joined the Nazi party had he been alive at the time.

But presuming he would eventually learn of their atrocities prior to Germany's defeat, I cannot, will not believe he would not have then disavowed them - given, were it possible, remembering how they compelled famous people to at least publicly support their regieme.

A human soul that conceived, created the likes of "Parsifal", that one such could knowingly standby and witness the horror of the concentration camps is not believeable to me.

Another great composer whose music one would think, be considered "tainted" by homophobes, is you know who.

To disparage, not listen to his music because of his sexual proclivity, to me is preposterous: ridiculous in the extreme.

I trust world society will never evolve into such an abomniable state: God forbid !!!

Alberich

P.S.- have you noticed that the "Spelling Check" deactivates when an answer reaches a certain length? Forgive me any misspellings; I don't have the energy to consult an online dictionary.

Sure, Wagner falls in that broad category. Karajan is very specific: the conductor, not necessarily the music which he conducted.

"The Battle Hymn of the Republic" (or "John Brown's Body") doesn't go over too well below the Mason-Dixon line even to this day.

Most, if not all, minstrel show songs do not sit well in the American black community. (or any community, for that matter) ... but they were all the rage back in their day.

.... So what exactly did the Nazi's learn from their hypothermia "science" experiments? Possibly the order in which vital organs shut down and how long it takes for an emaciated person to die. There's good science for you.

People have already made the point that Wagner, for all his personality defects, can in no way be 'blamed' for the atrocities perpetrated by the Nazis who came to power (elected in, remember) fifty years after Wagner died. Carl Orff's 'collusion' with the Nazis is hard to forgive. He agreed to write some incidental music for productions of 'A Midsummer Night's Dream' which would replace that of the Jewish-born (and therefore banned) Mendelssohn.

Orff was only offered this assignment because Richard Strauss had refused to do it. Strauss is often attacked because he remained in Germany when the Nazis took power and (seemingly) did nothing to resist them. One has to remember that in 1933 Strauss was already an old man of nearly seventy years with a family to think about. His refusal to partake in the 'Midsummer Night's Dream' project shows he was no party lackie. It is also very easy for us who have lived our lives in free democratic countries to criticise when we have no experience of living under a reign of terror such as that imposed by Hitler of Stalin.

One also has to remember that many people who 'co-operated' with the Nazis did so because they were forced to do it. If they hadn't, their families would have perished. Finally, remember that ALL boys over the age of 14 were required to become members of the Hilter Youth. There was no choice - it just happened as a matter of course. The current Pope became a member of the Hitler Youth in 1941, just like ALL boys in Germany at this time.

I think all people who veto music by 'tarnished' composers should take a lesson from Daniel Barenboim, who was almost single-handedly responsible for ending the ban on Wagner's music in Israel a few years ago (although, ironically, Orff and Strauss were never so banned). Art IS above the law in a way. One has to put aside the flaws of the creator and appreciate the art for its own merits. Otherwise, if we make such judgements on unseemly composers (and who will be the judge?), we might lose half the music we hold dear.

An interesting question, to be sure.

The story of the Renaissance composer Carlo Gesualdo, Prince of Venosa (1560 - 1613) reads like a delicious crime novel.

Gesualdo was a convicted murderer. He caught his wife and her lover "in flagrante delicto," and thus slaughtered them with his sword in their bed, then left their mutilated bodies in front of the palace for the public to see. It is said he also murdered his second child - a baby boy. It is alleged Gesualdo looked into the infant's eyes, and, doubting his paternity, subsequently rocked him to death.

Later, he suffered from depression - possible guilt for his crimes - but continued composing, producing a substantial amount of secular and sacred vocal music, as well as instrumental works. Gesualdo's most famous compositions are his six books of madrigals (1594 - 1611) - which epitomise his unconventional, often shockingly chromatic style.

I love Gesualdo's wild, daring music. I admit that when I first heard his shocking story and started listening to his music, it blew me away knowing he had committed such awful crimes - and yes, maybe his music was somewhat "tainted" for me, in this respect. But now I think, well, no doubt Gesualdo's bizarrely exquisite music is the product of a tortured soul.

But now I'm questioning my attitudes here - am I so "forgiving" because Gesualdo committed his murders 4 centuries ago, yet happened to compose such powerful music? Has time erased the dreadful memories of his crimes? Put it this way - how would I regard a set of madrigals (or the equivalent) composed today by a convicted murderer (who happens to be a brilliant composer) languishing in prison? In 400 years time, will our descendants still be as profoundly affected by the Nazi atrocities? I don't know. Maybe the cliche "time heals all" contains an element of truth...

Intriguing question - thank you.

Cheers,

Hafwen.

In a sense, all music, like all cultural products are "tainted" by the wrongs of their era. For instance, Mozart's Die Zauberflote, although a truly beautiful work, is an exceptionally sexist and racist work. But then again, overt misogyny and racism were commonplace during Mozart's day.

Then you have more overt cases, like Wagner, whose music was a big inspiration to Hitler. Of course, by Hitler's time, Wagner was dead, but if Wagner had been alive, he almost certainly would have been a Nazi. Many German composers fled -- or were forced out of -- Germany in response to Hitler (like Paul Hindemith or Arnold Schoenberg); others stuck around and joined the Nazi Party, like Richard Strauss and Karl Orff. I don't think we should totally reject things because we reject the negative forces that shaped them. But we should be aware of them.

Well I've mentioned Tveitt a lot before...

to quote a Wikipedia article...

"One of the most delicate and controversial areas of Tveitt's biography is his affiliation with the so-called Neo-Heathenistic movement, which centered around the Norwegian philosopher Hans S. Jacobsen in the 1930s in Oslo. This is a topic that frequently returns in Norwegian public debate. Jacobsen's main thesis - inspired by the theories of the German theologist Jakob Wilhelm Hauer - was the total refutation of Christianity in favour of a new heathen system based upon Norse mythology and the Edda poetry. The movement refuted Christianity and sought to re-introduce the Norse pre-Christian system of belief - the adoration of Odin, Tor and Balder. Jacobsen later became a member of Nasjonal Samling ('National Assembly') - which led the interim, pro-Hitler puppet government during the German occupation of Norway. Even though Geirr Tveitt displayed a deep interest in the theories of the movement, he never enrolled as a member of Nasjonal Samling. His preoccupation with Jacobsen's thinking however, materialised in conspicuous ways; for example Tveitt invented his own non-Christian timeline based upon the arrival of Leif Erikson in what is now Canada. Traces of Antisemitism are often found in his correspondence from the 1930s. The Neo-Heathen system of thought found its way into Tveitt's music; his perhaps most intensely such composition is the ballet Baldur's Dreams. In it, one could argue, Tveitt seeks to establish a link between this world - its creation, cycle and dwellers - and the eternal battle between the benevolent heathen Norse gods and their opponents, the evil jotuns. Tveitt began work on the ballet whilst studying in Leipzig, where it was first performed on 24 February 1938. There Baldur's Dreams became a remarkable success, and performances were later given in Berlin, Tübingen, Bergen and Oslo.

Another result of Tveitt's Norse purism was his development of the theory that the modal scales originally were Norwegian, renaming them in honor of Norse gods. He also developed an intricate diatonic theory, which interconnected the modal scales through a system of double leading notes. These ideas were published in his 1937 argument Tonalitätstheorie des parallellen Leittonsystems. Even though most musicologists agree that Tveitt's theories are colored by his personal convictions - his thesis is intelligent, challenging and thought-provoking.

The issue of Tveitt's inglorious relationship with so-called 'nazi-ideologies' is so delicate that most scholars have avoided it altogether. Some commentators have noticed that one of the foremost Norwegian authorities on Tveitt, Hallgjerd Aksnes, PhD., did not address this question in her article on Tveitt in the New Grove Dictionary of Music. Tveitt's connection to far-right German thinking is perhaps a question scholars will return to as the world understand the dynamics of a troubled period in European history more fully. For Tveitt, the question proved devastating to his reputation, and contributed significantly to his becoming a persona-non-grata in the post-war musical establishment in Norway. However, as the most traumatic years of European history is now becoming more distant, a new generation of academics and musicians are approaching Tveitt and his music. Most of Tveitt's remaining music is now commercially available on records."

I don't care what Tveitts dark sides are... His music is beautiful. I am a devout Mormon... Even if Tveitt was a Hitler, out to slaughter Mormons, I really wouldn't care... His music is beautiful. I don't care about any performers or composers background. Some of them just have a darned amount of talent.

And that's what I look for in musicians...

Okay the truth is that that is my homework. I've been sick with the flu for the past 4 days and I have a ton of makeup work to do. And its all due tomorrow! I dont have time to look all the answers on top of everything else I have to do so if anyone could please just help me it would be greatly appreciated!