How many people on here are Messianic Jewish or Covenant Keepers?

Please, out of respect for Jews, always put the term "Messianic Jewish", "Messianic Jew", or "Messianic Judaism" in quotation marks to indicate these terms are oxymoronic and have nothing whatsoever to do with Judaism. Thank you.

I have met and seen many Messianic Jews. I think Evangelicals call themselves "Covenant Keepers" and Messianic Jews belong to the Evangelical branch, since most missionaries are Evangelicals.

So this means, you are right, they are the same.

Messianic Jews are not Jewish and their church has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism. There is no debate on that.

They are not considered Jews by Orthodox Jews. They are not considered Jews by Conservative Jews. They are not considered Jews by Reform Jews. They are not considered Jews by observant Jews. They are not considered Jews by "I only go twice a year" Jews. They are not Jews. PERIOD.

They would not be welcome in an Orthodox, Conservative or Reform synagogue. They can absolutely not participate in any Jewish service.

Their church was started by a Southern Baptist Minister in the early 1990's and was an extension of earlier Christian movements such as "Jews for Jesus" . As they are actually Christians that have taken on the trapping of Judaism in order to convert Jews to Christianity, they are found to be particularly offensive.

They claim that they can decide who and who is not a Jew. They cannot. It would be like my saying that I am a medical doctor even though I never went to medical school and my understanding of human physiology was gleaned from reading the ads in the back of the National Enqurier. Now I can move my mouth and say Im a doctor but how comfortable would you be if you came to me for treatment.

Let's take the analogy further. Let us say that your child suffered from a life threatening disease and you came to me for help. Your child dies and you then found out about my qualifications. How would you react?

Well Messianic Jews are like stealth christians that call themselves Jews in order to facilitate the destruction of my faith.

So please understand that this is not an anti-Christian stance. If your life has been enriched by accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior, we are truly happy for you. But people who call themselves Jews and then twist our traditions and teaching for their own purpose are found to be deeply repugnant

Messianic Jews are just Christians wearing a Biblical "disguise."

"Messianic Jews" are just evangelical Christians. "Who call themselves Jews but are not Jews but are a synagogue of Satan".

They are basically Christians.

"Messianic Jews" are either Christians trying to convert "Jews" away from Judaism, or they are Christians attempting to follow the Oral Tradition / Torah of Judaism, an impossibility.

Those who truly believe in the Messiah of the NT are realizing the idolatrous ways of Chrisitianity and desire to turn to the WRITTEN Torah without the Oral Traditions and laws of Judaism made binding upon it.

The purpose of the Messiah is to draw His people back to the written Torah:

Mat 22:36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"

Deu 6:5 "And you shall love YHVH your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

People of all nations (the "stranger") who want to hear, learn, fear YHVH, and observe the ALL the words of the Torah are taking hold of the covenant with faithful Israel:

Deu 31:12 Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and *thy stranger* that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear YHVH your God, and observe to do *all the words of this TORAH*:

Isa 56:6 Also the sons of *the stranger*, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of YHVH, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and *taketh hold of my covenant*;

Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Isa 56:8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

King Solomon in all his God given wisdom prays for those not of Israel who know the name of YHVH. "All people of the earth" are to know and fear Him, keep His commandments, as does Israel to worship their Creator:

1 Ki 8:41 Moreover concerning *a stranger*, that is not of thy people Israel, but cometh out of a far country for thy name's sake;

1 Ki 8:42 (For they shall hear of thy great name, and of thy strong hand, and of thy stretched out arm;) when he shall come and pray toward this house;

1 Ki 8:43 Hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for: that **all people of the earth may know thy name, to fear thee, as do thy people Israel**; and that they may know that this house, which I have builded, is called by thy name.

The religions of Christianity and Judaism are trying to keep mankind from life in the written Torah of our Creator and they are both doing an excellent job of it. Unlikely partners for a common cause and result.

Let me be really clear: “Messianic Jews”, “Jews for Jesus”, etc., are **not** Jewish. Period. They are Christians, many of whom, under false pretenses, aggressively seek to convert Jews and descendants of intermarriage to Christianity in a way that many of us find invasive, disrespectful, and anti-Semitic.

Before I even get to what Jewish law says about these impostors, consider this: not only does every Jewish organization completely reject them as Jewish, but so do a fair number of Christian groups (see links 2-4 below).

If no Jew thinks that you’re Jewish, and even some Christians don’t, then how can you possibly think that you are? And if one thinks that this rejection is a recent phenomenon, think again! Even St. Ignatius, of the 2nd century, felt the same way! In his Epistle to the Magnesians he wrote:

“Never allow yourselves to be led astray by false teachings and antiquated and useless fables. Nothing of any use can be got from them. If we are still living in the practice of Judaism, it is an admission that we have failed to receive the gift of grace…To profess Jesus Christ while continuing to follow Jewish customs ***is an absurdity***…[L]et us learn to live like Christians. To profess any other name but that is to be lost to God…For where there is Christianity there cannot be Judaism.”

And now for what **we** say:

Most Jewish scholars agree that you cannot convert away from Judaism (there are a minority who say you can convert away). However, this by no means implies that a Jew who joins another religion has the same standing as a Jew who has remained Jewish. A Jew who practices another religion, whether it be Christianity (in any of its forms, including Messianic "Judaism"), Islam or anything else, is known as an "apostate." An apostate is someone who has removed themselves from the Jewish people by joining another faith. The apostate cannot be buried in a Jewish cemetery. Nor can the apostate be counted for a minyan, the minimum of ten adult Jews (or adult Jewish men, depending on one's denomination) needed for saying certain prayers. For nearly all practical purposes, they have the same status in the Jewish community as non-Jews. The only difference is that they do not have to undergo a full conversion to rejoin the Jewish community, though there is a process known as "Teshuvah" that they must go through to come back to the Jewish community with full Jewish status.

So, once we delve into Jewish law we see that a Jew who joins another religion, though still Jewish, has ostensibly the status of a non-Jew and is no longer able to participate as a full member of the Jewish community. The apostate has the weakest of all grasps to their Jewish identity, they are Jewish by birth but otherwise have no position in the Jewish community.

This then brings us to a discussion on the difference between "doing Jewish" and "being Jewish." By "doing Jewish", I am referring to someone who is actually practicing Jewish beliefs and laws. By "being Jewish", I mean someone who has been born Jewish. Now, there are many people who are born Jewish but are not practicing Judaism. For instance, if a Jewish person murders a family, the Jewish person may be "born Jewish" but certainly was not "doing Jewish" as murder is a violation of the Ten Commandments.

Similarly, we can see examples of this in the Jewish Bible. The prime example of this would be the Jews who worshipped the Golden Calf at Mount Sinai. These individuals were unquestionably Jewish by their birth, thus we can argue that they were "being Jewish." However, were they "doing Jewish?" The Bible is quite clear that these individuals, though born Jewish, were not practicing Judaism. The worship of the Golden Calf, though it was a monotheistic form of worship, was clearly a violation of the Biblical law regarding the making of idols. Thus, they were not "doing Jewish." Similarly, in the Prophets we see countless reprimands of people who were undeniably Jewish by birth, but had entered into apostasy by worshipping gods such as Baal and Ashtoret. They were not "doing Jewish" but "doing pagan" and had violated the very underpinning of Judaism. That they were "being Jewish" by their birth was clearly not sufficient. One must also "do Jewish" in their actions.

Along the same lines, many of Jesus' original followers were unquestionably born Jewish. However, by adopting non-Jewish beliefs, such as thinking that Jesus was a god (a violation of several places in the Jewish Bible, Numbers 23:19 and Hoshea 11:9 provide a few examples of this), were no longer "doing Jewish." The same is true for individuals in the Messianic movement today. The Messianic movement was created by Christianity, and its beliefs and values reflect Christianity. By practicing Messianic "Judaism", the individual who was "born Jewish" is no longer "doing Jewish." They have removed themselves from the Jewish community by their practice and beliefs. Unfortunately, too few of these individuals have an understanding of the difference between "being Jewish" and "doing Jewish", mistakenly believing that they can both believe in Jesus and still have the same status in Jewish community as before. They not only have lost status, but also have lost the practice of Judaism. As has been pointed out in the Talmud, the emphasis for us is on the action, the "doing Jewish.

This is taken from the reference section of the first link:

1. "There is virtual unanimity across all denominations (of Judaism) that Jews for Jesus are not Jewish." (Kaplan, Dana Evan. The Cambridge Companion to American Judaism, Cambridge University Press, Aug 15, 2005, pp. 139-140).

2. "For most American Jews, it is acceptable to blend some degree of foreign spiritual elements with Judaism. The one exception is Christianity, which is perceived to be incompatible with any form of Jewishness. Jews for Jesus and other Messianic Jewish groups are thus seen as antithetical to Judaism and are completely rejected by the majority of Jews". (Kaplan, Dana Evan. The Cambridge Companion to American Judaism, Cambridge University Press, Aug 15, 2005, p. 9).

3. Jewish groups:

o "To make the record clear, Jews for Jesus is a Christian missionary organization – period." (last link).

o "Messianic Jewish organizations, such as Jews for Jesus, often refer to their faith as fulfilled Judaism, in that they believe Jesus fulfilled the Messianic prophecies. Although Messianic Judaism claims to be Jewish, and many adherents observe Jewish holidays, most Jews regard Messianic Judaism as deceptive at best, fraudulent at worst. They charge that Messianic Judaism is actually Christianity presenting itself as Judaism." (Balmer, Randall. Encyclopedia of Evangelicalism, Baylor University Press, Nov 2004, p. 448).