Jehovah’s Witnesses: Do you understand the difference between organizational rules and freedom of conscience?

Trying to talk to family members who are still Jehovah's Witnesses about this subject frustrates me. They deny that there are rules and we all grew up together living under these same rules! If I hear the words "conscience issue" one more time, I'm gonna scream.

Your analogy is excellent. Here's mine. I had a controlling, abusive husband. I learned that if I wanted to go somewhere, I needed to ask his permission or things would get ugly. When I asked, he would always looked hurt and said I didn't need to ask his permission. It made him feel like a bully. If I did not ask permission and just informed him I was going somewhere, all hell broke loose. So, yes, he SAYS I don't have to ask his permission (conscience issue), but I know darn well there will be consequences if I don't.

You say that "all Jehovah's Witnesses" are forbidden to have a beard. Actually that isn't true at all. It is a cultural thing. In the West where we live, our elders do not wear beards. This isn't always true in other countries. In countries where it is common for men to wear beards and it has always been common, our men there wear beards. The reason they don't in this country is to avoid having any reason for our ministry to be found fault with. We don't want ANYONE to turn away from the message because our appearance isn't clean, professional and neat. Most professional people in the west do not wear beards. This may not be true in other countries, but it is true here. You are right that "times change". As far as birthdays? I personally don't care one way or another about them, but I follow the guidance of the faithful and discreet slave class. While it is true that in the Bible they are portrayed in a negative light, there are other principles involved too. One of which is that "let no one thing more of himself than it is necessary to think". Romans 12:3 I've never celebrated birthdays or spent much time around people who do, but I've heard of people getting all offended and causing big rifts in relationships because someone else hasn't honored his or her birthday. Don't you think that is a little excessive? Don't you agree that when someone views themselves as THAT important that they are giving honor to the wrong person rather than to God? Beyond that whatever people do "today" or whatever reason they may have for doing it or not doing it, don't you agree that God has been around a LONG LONG time and that HE has seen the origins and all the reasons why people started all the various pagan customs. Don't you think HE knows where they came from? If it weren't a big deal, if it didn't involve false worship, if "times have changed" then wouldn't this be true of ALL pagan customs? Couldn't you make the same argument for Christmas or Easter or Halloween? If you DID make that argument would you be fooling God? After all he was around when people worshipped the Sun God (Saturnalia) or Ashtoreth, Baal and Molech (Easter) and certainly he knows how much honor you give to the wicked ones when you celebrate halloween... The "Day of the Dead" (some have said) goes all the way back to honoring the Nephilim, the sons of the wicked Demons which sons were executed by Jehovah at the flood. When you think of what a LONG history ancient pagan customs have, and what a dishonorable beginning they had, how they started as a way to honor false gods, and how Satanism itself teaches that "everyone" can be a "god", and how most of theser practices honor Jehovah's ENEMY rather than Jehovah, Does it seem reasonable that WE who call ourselves HIS people would participate in such God dishonoring things?

Leslie: I like your manner but I still disagree.

Holding Pattern (REO): Why do you leave a nasty remark then withdraw it when the asker refers to it?

There are a few JWs (supposed) that do that - it's really very silly. But Reo, this time you got caught by a "sister" . . lol.

Rustic: With regard to "Pagan Activities" the JWs 100pc believe this to be biblical, that's why they refrain.

However - you are right in what you say.

If the repercussions and consequences weren't so damaging (disfellowshiping for example) Im sure some would reconsider their stance on many issues, certainly the blood issue.

The Watchtower designed the "break the rules and you are out" part to their org, not the bible and certainly not God.

The answer is yes I do, and I also agree with the statement made.

I liked your illustration of the traffic cameras (I hate those things), but I would disagree w/ you. You do have freedom of choice, we're not robots, everything we do is a choice.

Adam and Eve made a choice, David chose to sleep w/ Bathsheba, Moses chose to take the credit for getting the water out of the rock, and Satan and a 3rd of the angels made a choice.

"To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

- Newton

**edit**

Holding Pattern, (or whoever you are) - Are you bi-polar? I had to give your espanol rampage a T D, than I look @ your answer and you did an about face.

Remember, “A shrewd man is covering knowledge, but the heart of the stupid ones is one that calls out foolishness.”—Proverbs 12:23.

I belong to an organization which I chose to join. I knew the 'rules' before I joined, and I acknowledge the groups' right to have these 'rules'. I also understand that If I violate them, I may find myself out of the organization.

The 'rules' just happen to coincide with what I have learned from the bible, and so I recognize that the 'rules' are invented by God, not some earthly organization, and that makes it even better.

I, and you, and everyone else has the right to make their own choices-and those choices will earn you consequences-either for good or bad. Grown people with keen minds understand this, and act accordingly. No one is asking you, Rustic, to conform to the rules of being a Jehovah's Witness. You go your own way, with your free thinking mind. I have a free thinking mind, as well, but choose to discipline myself according to God's standards, not my own. He has the ultimate right to say what is good and what is bad, and I trust Him to let me know which is which.

The original problem with human beings is that Eve began to want what was not hers to have-independance from God, to use her free will to her ruin, and to ours.

"It does not belong to man who is walking, even to direct is own step."

I appreciate the direction, and I have a very keen conscience, thank you.

They are big on not celebrating holidays as you mentioned, however the slander and defamation that takes place within the organization is permissable I guess. Hypocrisy is something they mention but most fail to abide by their "Live for Jehovah's Day In Mind" publication that they must deal with their fellow witnesses and anyone else in the world with the utmost of honesty and integrity. They must be honest and upright in all their dealings with anyone, yet this could not be further from the truth.

Sure they get their instructions from headquarters in the form of Watchtower and various other publications, including their doctored version of the Bible, however because their version of doctrine is so convaluted they don't practice what they preach except pretending to be big on not celebrating holidays and faking their holier than though [supposed true] Christian values.

I see witnesses on here who ask if they should celebrate their mother's birthdays, or Christmas with their non-believing (other) family members and they already know the answer to such. Some of them have been in the "truth" as they like to call it for many years, so why ask if they know about "red light - green light"? It's always about choice with these ones because they don't practice as they'd have others think they preach. It's a hokey, okey dokey religious style that is not from God.

After all it's a big business, a big corporation. They don't practice what they preach.

Here is a recent question I posted regarding an extremely troubling situation. NONE of them answered as usual. They just cowarded back as they usually do to the more heated on-point questions:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AgfIh...

Figures.

Adam and Eve were commanded to leave the fruit alone. Why? Because it was pagan? No. Because it did not belong to them. God sets boundaries. Do you agree? God told them what would happen if they disobeyed. Do you agree? Their lives were involved. Do you agree? Their relationship with Jehovah was on the line. Do you agree? Armed with sufficient information upon which to make an informed choice, they deliberately chose to listen to Satan and disobey God. Do you agree? They thereby ruined their relationship with God and committed slow suicide. Do you agree? They brought upon themselves the death sentence. Do you agree?

Jehovah's Witnesses are in the same position as Adam and Eve. They are given sufficient information as respects what pleases and what displeases God. Armed with this information, they make informed choices as to what they will do. To wit: fornication is displeasing to God. Do you agree? The practice of it is not tolerated by God. Do you agree? Those who practice such things are removed from the Christian congregation as the fornicator was removed from the Corinthian congregation. Do you agree?

So let us strip away all of the ambiguities and clever but deceptive reasoning. The bottom line is this: Who sets the standard? You or God? What is obedience? What is disobedience? And which does God require? And those who profess to worship and love him – what do they choose to do?

Any attempt to minimize these matters into 'freedom of conscience calls' is self-deceiving, at the very least of it and dangerous at the very worst of it. By your own admission, if you don't stop at that red light, you will suffer a penalty. So you stop – not because you recognize the principle behind the law, but because you don't want to go in your pocket and pay the price. So clearly you are not obeying from your heart. It is usually the case that to obey the law is to do so out of fear of punishment. That is hardly a clarion call to honesthearted people. For lovers of God, responding to Bible principles precludes such a reaction because to respond to the principles of God is to respond from the heart – where love for him wells up. There is no love in any of your equations and arguments. There are only straw men. But the true Christian's love for God huffs and puffs and blows them down, sir.

Hannah J Paul

So, it's my turn now to be quoted eh?

Well, I like to use whole quotes when I quote. It's important because then quotes cannot be taken out of context so I hope you don't mind but I've included my whole answer in response to your question about celebrating Children's day....

Quote...

"When are you going to get it Rustic?.. that we CHOOSE not to celebrate these things.

It isn't that we're told what to do..

We make our own CHOICE

As a member of a disunited religion maybe that is a bit hard for you to understand but that's what united worship is all about .. and it's one proof that Jehovah's spirit is with us all. We all make the same choices ourselves. With all due respect, you probably won't understand this because you're not part of it..."

(end quote)

With all due respect Rustic, you are a nitpicker you know.

You know exactly what I meant by my answer. And like I said, I honestly don't expect you to understand. Unless you're a part of it & experience the unity that we have among ourselves, you will never understand it. Within your religion there are diverse views on a range of subjects.... the Trinity being one of them. When you see a group of people all agreeing with each other, this is alien to you, so you attempt to rationalize it by inferring that we must be told what to do & say.

We're all guided by holy spirit. We all have choice. It has nothing to do with the threat of being disfellowshiped. It has to do with loving Jehovah & his word .... and CHOOSING to be guided by that rather than Satan's world (including his false religious set-up)

Now Rustic, you can choose to quote me again if you like, but it would be courteous if you notify me in future so that I don't miss the question when you do so.

Of course, that is your choice.

jw's aside how do i feel about my god. I don't want to hurt others or myself god sets standards we make choices and only unrepentant sinners of gross sin are ousted as you well know. I would not want to dress like my god's greatest enemy and i cannot see any true lover of god doing so' The people who would do these things are not true christians and you are labeling some as such.

We have freedom of choice but we also base our decisions on the Bible. God doesn't tell us in certain words that we need to do this or that but through Bible knowledge we are to understand it. We have the ability to understand what is right and wrong and we make our decisions based on the Bible.